Mercedes are clearly fastest, they got the FL and double points. Ferrari are also behind Lotus so they are the 5th best team. FACT.
The Button Question?
- Thread starter Smithers
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Forza: Your signature quotation of Button is a good example of how one can say something which may not be ultimately true. Despite Button's sincerity, I believe Hockenheim may prove to be the peak of McLaren's performance, relative to Ferrari.
Your other four quoted remarks are from Ferrari personnel (including Alonso who, like most drivers, likes to reinforce his own value) who must always play down their hand to the whole of Italy and extended tifosi, which I believe may include yourself!
In my opinion, anyone who thinks that Ferrari is not right up there at the front with any other car, has been sold a dummy!
Right. I'm going to watch this on TV now, with a beer; so over and out!
Your other four quoted remarks are from Ferrari personnel (including Alonso who, like most drivers, likes to reinforce his own value) who must always play down their hand to the whole of Italy and extended tifosi, which I believe may include yourself!
In my opinion, anyone who thinks that Ferrari is not right up there at the front with any other car, has been sold a dummy!
Right. I'm going to watch this on TV now, with a beer; so over and out!
Ferrari are very fast, but today they were slightly behind Red Bull and McLaren. Even Vettel said Ferrari was not the quickest today (according to Benson). For both Vettel and Button to catch and stay right behind Alonso for a number of laps despite being in dirty air means they either have faster cars, or they are better drivers. It's very close between McLaren and Ferrari (and Red Bull), but all dry sessions this weekend (P1, P3, Q1, race) pointed to McLaren having the faster car.
Hi again Forza: I am returning to the forum after a very long day.
Having now seen BBC's highlights programme, with nothing else going on around me, I must concede that Button's pace relative to Alonso was very impressive in the last dozen or so laps – until with just three or four laps remaining his tyres went off, causing him to fall back to Vettel. Having seen this footage, there was a point at which the McLaren certainly looked faster. However, I am sure you would not be underestimate Alonso's ability to 'manage' a race to its optimum: his tyre management and overall appreciation of circumstance was a lesson in how it should be done and acted as a carrot to Button, knowing he would hurt his older tyres in attempting to get within DRS range at the all-important detection point.
To me, Alonso's Ferrari was quicker from the exit of the hairpin, all the way to the detection point; and that's all he needed in order to maintain the critical gap. This is what's known as 'managing the gap'. Alonso did this to perfection but his car was the ideal tool to do the job! Such discretionary driving can flatter the chasing car…
Despite having seen the gap was closer, for longer, than I'd previously thought, I would still put Ferrari, McLaren and Red Bull as roughly equal in a space which has very very narrow margins. This season is incredibly competitive!
Having now seen BBC's highlights programme, with nothing else going on around me, I must concede that Button's pace relative to Alonso was very impressive in the last dozen or so laps – until with just three or four laps remaining his tyres went off, causing him to fall back to Vettel. Having seen this footage, there was a point at which the McLaren certainly looked faster. However, I am sure you would not be underestimate Alonso's ability to 'manage' a race to its optimum: his tyre management and overall appreciation of circumstance was a lesson in how it should be done and acted as a carrot to Button, knowing he would hurt his older tyres in attempting to get within DRS range at the all-important detection point.
To me, Alonso's Ferrari was quicker from the exit of the hairpin, all the way to the detection point; and that's all he needed in order to maintain the critical gap. This is what's known as 'managing the gap'. Alonso did this to perfection but his car was the ideal tool to do the job! Such discretionary driving can flatter the chasing car…
Despite having seen the gap was closer, for longer, than I'd previously thought, I would still put Ferrari, McLaren and Red Bull as roughly equal in a space which has very very narrow margins. This season is incredibly competitive!
The McLaren looked quick in Germany, but not that fast. I don't get why people are obsessed with the notion of car being fastest, meaning that it should in easily. That's rarely been the case this year. The "fastest" car is often only just about arguably fastest, and not something that a driver should be able to easily scythe through the field in.
The McLaren was good, but it couldn't cope with the strain that trying to pass a few cars and make up places put on it, compared to the relatively easier job that Alonso had of just keeping his nose in front. For some reason, Vettel nor Button were really able to put much pressure on him, and even Hamilton on fresh tyres (all be it with a car that was damaged) could not pass him.
Alonso is a canny beast, and knows that in this season there's little value in scampering off into the distance unless you are sure that your tyres will last, which we have seen a couple of times when a car is in the tyre wear sweet spot. Often tho, it's better to drive within yourself and save something for if an attack comes. Alsono seemed to have plenty of pace when it was needed, most of the time.
Anyway, it's good to see Button back being competitive, but it's a shame that we lost Webber to the mid-field mysteriously. Hopefully from this point on, the big 3 (and Mercedes and Lotus too) will give their drivers competitive cars that they can all get on with and we can see some great racing.
The McLaren was good, but it couldn't cope with the strain that trying to pass a few cars and make up places put on it, compared to the relatively easier job that Alonso had of just keeping his nose in front. For some reason, Vettel nor Button were really able to put much pressure on him, and even Hamilton on fresh tyres (all be it with a car that was damaged) could not pass him.
Alonso is a canny beast, and knows that in this season there's little value in scampering off into the distance unless you are sure that your tyres will last, which we have seen a couple of times when a car is in the tyre wear sweet spot. Often tho, it's better to drive within yourself and save something for if an attack comes. Alsono seemed to have plenty of pace when it was needed, most of the time.
Anyway, it's good to see Button back being competitive, but it's a shame that we lost Webber to the mid-field mysteriously. Hopefully from this point on, the big 3 (and Mercedes and Lotus too) will give their drivers competitive cars that they can all get on with and we can see some great racing.
Good to see the form back, but he needs to keep the momentum going and ignore the championship standings for now. It was Hungary last year where he really took off, but like that year he may be too far back. I dont think he has really been gone the car simply hasnt been good enough until now.
There were times when they couldn't stick with Alonso, the performance of the top three tended to ebb and flow, there was rarely more than a tenth or two between them.
This.
Button had to use more of his tyres to keep up with Alonso though which showed when his rears were practically gone two laps from the end.
I think yesterday the Mclaren and Ferrari were more or less equal and I think the Red Bull might of been a tad quicker than both of them because Vettel seems to be driving quite ragged yesterday and apparently had a KERS problem (although I do not know how much that cost him) and he was still able to have similar pace to Alonso and Button.
There were two times when Alonso was quicker than Button - one is the first stint where Button had traffic and the other is the final stint where Button's tyres went off. All other times Button was faster. As for Vettel, there were also two times where Alonso was quicker - one being the end of the first stint (tyre management was probably the reason for this) and the second time was when Hamilton overtook Vettel. They were equally matched in the final stint but Vettel was quicker for the rest of it.
At least we all agree it was very close between the three, but my point remains - Ferrari were slightly behind and McLaren were the fastest.
More quotes:
At least we all agree it was very close between the three, but my point remains - Ferrari were slightly behind and McLaren were the fastest.
More quotes:
If you have similar cars and one car (Mclaren) drives at 100% then it is going to be quicker at that time than the other car (Ferrari) driving at 95%. Alonso was just controlling the race from the front and saving his tyres, that is why when Button and Vettel got to about 1 sec of him they could not get passed him.
Agreed. Alonso didn't need to push so his ultimate pace was masked. Tellingly he seemed to be able to pull away by a tenth or two between the last corner and the DRS zone, suggesting he was only pushing in the areas he needed to be quick. I don't think he played it so cool that he was prepared to let Vettel and Button into the DRS zone - they were genuinely faster at certain points - but I don't think Alonso pushed as hard as he could have.
Anyway we're splitting hairs, there was very little in it and the best driver won on the day.
Forza:
'Managing the gap' has been explained here by more than just me. I am sure you understand the concept. You are quoting statements from Anderson and Whitmarsh in which they have both made factual observations of lap times but in which neither make efforts to explain the reason(s) for these observational 'facts'.
For a fuller understanding, one must look beneath superficial evidence. For instance, the Sun now rises in the east, just as it did for the Ancient Egyptians who worshipped it. But they did not understand the reason â that the earth they stood upon was spinning like a top!
The McLaren was faster at times. But look deeper: ask yourself why!
'Managing the gap' has been explained here by more than just me. I am sure you understand the concept. You are quoting statements from Anderson and Whitmarsh in which they have both made factual observations of lap times but in which neither make efforts to explain the reason(s) for these observational 'facts'.
For a fuller understanding, one must look beneath superficial evidence. For instance, the Sun now rises in the east, just as it did for the Ancient Egyptians who worshipped it. But they did not understand the reason â that the earth they stood upon was spinning like a top!
The McLaren was faster at times. But look deeper: ask yourself why!