We've lacked a midfield play maker for years also.
In fact we've lacked in alot of things the past 10/15 years
In fact we've lacked in alot of things the past 10/15 years
Team sheet Tactics & Formation
- Thread starter Buckyohare
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Tactically speaking the defence is so important; fergie was quoted recently saying at some point in the past how league titles start with a good defence. With Bramble we developed an outstanding defender at the top level of English football but I don’t think we’ve had anyone that good since. Certainly the academy hasn’t produced one and that flow of talent has been missing, aside from the wonder kid we sold to Sunderland who’s done nowt since.
with a lack of quality coming through and a lack of funds to buy it you can see how we just slowly morphed into a hard working, pragmatic side that avoided defeat and hoped to Nick a goal. That’s fine: Jose and before that George Graham did well with that philosophy but as our quality aged, weakened and any creativity disappeared (even Graham had Limpar and Merson) it’s Hardly a tactical recipe for progress.
Cook has bought more forwards and creatives that any other area of the pitch! It’s almost imbalanced. Well it is actually. But if the opposition fear that you’ll hurt them they have to set up to defend too which I don’t think many teams has to bother doing in the last few years against us. Who was going to create and score anything..? Alan Judge…?
I expect our tactics will yield some Kevin keegan esque results at first but after Xmas window they’ll need to have some better defence in place to drive a promotion challenge going forward.
with a lack of quality coming through and a lack of funds to buy it you can see how we just slowly morphed into a hard working, pragmatic side that avoided defeat and hoped to Nick a goal. That’s fine: Jose and before that George Graham did well with that philosophy but as our quality aged, weakened and any creativity disappeared (even Graham had Limpar and Merson) it’s Hardly a tactical recipe for progress.
Cook has bought more forwards and creatives that any other area of the pitch! It’s almost imbalanced. Well it is actually. But if the opposition fear that you’ll hurt them they have to set up to defend too which I don’t think many teams has to bother doing in the last few years against us. Who was going to create and score anything..? Alan Judge…?
I expect our tactics will yield some Kevin keegan esque results at first but after Xmas window they’ll need to have some better defence in place to drive a promotion challenge going forward.
Don't agree with the cause of that. The players have still been coming through. In any era since 1960 until 2010 we would have made at least three or four key players from the likes of Rhodes, Marriott, Smith, Dozzell, Downes, Bishop, Hyam, Woolfy, Folami, Lankester, and all those who got nowhere near the first team before moving on or being poached by huge clubs - the likes of Harry Wright, Harry Clarke, Ben Knight, Marcelo Flores, Liam Gibbs would still be at Town if there were any prospects. The raw talent has still been coming through but we have been absolutely pitiful at nurturing them.
I think its extremely complicated but tend to in the main agree with Hampy, think we have produced some pretty good young players over the years but the first team environment hasn't been conducive to developing them past a certain point or in some cases harming their development. I mean as I've said time and time again I can only really think of 1 players who performed consistently well week in week out season after season during the ME era and that's Cresswell so if senior players have been unable to perform on a consistent level week in week out in that era what chance have our youngsters had?
Bart was one of the more vocal ones who caused all the issues with Hurst coming in and doing what needed to be done. A good keeper he was but leader he certainly was not.
Sooo, we have a lotta forwards…who’s your pick for the theee up top and do we want them in a 3-1 or 1-2?
piggot can play deep it seems and with a partner so I’m still sure he will be first choice.
In a 2-1 I’m guessing he drops alongside Bonne withcgsplun and burns more conventional wingers.
I’d prefer 3-1 still if burns, Fraser, Chaplin and Lester up top with Barry and Bonne to shake it up if we need it…that’s a frightening forward line!
Somebody pinch me!
piggot can play deep it seems and with a partner so I’m still sure he will be first choice.
In a 2-1 I’m guessing he drops alongside Bonne withcgsplun and burns more conventional wingers.
I’d prefer 3-1 still if burns, Fraser, Chaplin and Lester up top with Barry and Bonne to shake it up if we need it…that’s a frightening forward line!
Somebody pinch me!
In squad number news I see Ed Sheeran has been allocated number 17.Call me an old cynic but it’s obvious someone’s seen a good way to shift more shirts,good move!
Yorkie will be pissed off, Sheeran number 17 is worse than a bloody loan!!
Sheeran 17 is a clever commercial move likely to increase global exposure and shirt sales.
Because up until now we’ve been run by clueless idiots who wouldn’t know a commercial opportunity if it slapped them about the face repeatedly!
If he put the guitar down to play for us I’d say it’s a decent trade off!
He’d have to promise not to sing,too!
I accept he is phenomenally successful and popular (and,seemingly,a genuinely nice guy) but I’ve just never really “got” the appeal of his music,it’s completely inoffensive and, to me, instantly forgettable.
Interesting on a tactical level yesterday. The purist 4231 didn’t quite click but that’s to offset against 8 debuts, a big occasion, lack of game time etc etc. And Fraser’s goal was a glimpse of swift interplay in the box a la Man City.
but ultimately it was route 1 that rescued the point. So whilst I expect the system to evolve and we move away from reliance on that way of playing it does bring into question the effectiveness of a lone striker over a pairing.
piggot is something of a sheringham; he’s very good coming deep and playing in others or a strike partner. Norwood or Bonne would lap it up. And we have plenty of options to play alongside him.
I thought Fraser was not great on the left and Chaplin not effective in the 10. I’d like to see them swap.
if Aluko and Barry play together with someone in behind, Chaplin I imagine If cook really wants him in that role for L1, then we might see how that can work Tuesday albeit against inferior opposition.
but ultimately it was route 1 that rescued the point. So whilst I expect the system to evolve and we move away from reliance on that way of playing it does bring into question the effectiveness of a lone striker over a pairing.
piggot is something of a sheringham; he’s very good coming deep and playing in others or a strike partner. Norwood or Bonne would lap it up. And we have plenty of options to play alongside him.
I thought Fraser was not great on the left and Chaplin not effective in the 10. I’d like to see them swap.
if Aluko and Barry play together with someone in behind, Chaplin I imagine If cook really wants him in that role for L1, then we might see how that can work Tuesday albeit against inferior opposition.
The Cheltenham thread was getting some good debate on this topic and I'd been mulling things over myself. tactics and formation chat will et lost there...
to put my cards on the table; I always wanted an attacking ITFC that went down fighting if it was going to lose-anything but the dirge of before. and we've certainly got that!
one of the main positives is the possession; we had the vast majority in every game, 65% at Cheltenham away from home and before their second goal it looked closer to 90% in that initial second half period. which is the galling thing; they get the ball and bang they score. Lets also bear in ind this is all they can hope to do-use that freak to launch long throws and be hard to beat with some options on the counter. But lets look at the defence in a sec...
most glaringly obvious to all is it seems were not effective enough in the final third with all that possession. Edwards looks great BUT he can't be a poor man's Zaha (head down and take the world on all by himself). he has to be one of the 5-6 ways we attack and create a goal scoring opportunity for anyone. problem is the full backs in this system are supposed to go forward and do the job of a winger in a 442 and get crosses in which, so far, isn't quite happening. so were stuck with going through the middle, which is too predicitable and easy to defend if that's your only route to goal.
Penney isn't doing it on the left, and unless KVY gets back to his pre injury form, he aint doing it on the right. one thing I know for sure; Donacien is NEVER going to do it as a right back in this team. he's a squad player offering cover when we have injuries.
Final major tactical observation for me is the high press. Liverpool are the masters at this; one jumps on the defender in possession and the other two are anticipating where they will erroneously pass the ball in order to intercept it and suddenly; bang, there are 3 of the best strikers in the league 25 yards from goal and a defence in panic. the rest is, invariably history. we must do more to win possession in the final third so we're not doing all this nice but largely ineffective passing around midfield. the forwards are so high that when they get the ball the opposition is already back in a defensive line and ready and waiting, no panic, just goal side and doing an effective job. thats not how a high press works well...
so what to do?
well if I'm PC, I'm thinking I can stick with these players in this system or I can tweak it and try and add some resilience in defence and maintain the attacking prowess that can blow teams away. if its me in charge, with no wins yet, a soft defence that can't play from the back and a clear issue with getting width, crosses and chances created for the front three I'd switch it to a 3 at the back in a 3412 as follows:
Hladky - surely still better than Holy-remember that calamity v Colchester...? Hladky hasn't done anything that daft. yet...
cb- Burgess
cb-Wolfy (only until Edmundson is back). he hit some long diagonals yesterday that achieved nothing but looked better overall. still more hoofs than passes.
Cb- Harper - he's got so much class, pace, skill, technique he is the perfect player to play out from the back which this system relies on as much as an effective high press. he'd be good in the air and calm under pressure. perfect.
mid- Evans
mid- Carroll-both are perfect to sit in and spray passes, collect from
right wing back - Burns. or KVY if he's on form.
left wing back - Coulson-he's seemingly from a higher level and says he can get to the byline and cross, same applies to Burns. Piggot is good in the air so its worth doing.
AMC- Fraser- get him in the no10 with two wingers flying down the flanks and two forwards ahead of him and still has his own option to have a go. don't think were being/making the most of him.
forward- Edwards-give him licence to drift right or left, he's a defenders worst nightmare-running at them with pace and skill into the box. just be less one dimensional than Zaha!
CF- Piggot or Norwood. I completely take ITFC's point; Norwood looks a very effective point man over Piggot's more Sherringham style but as Top Bunk says, he's a red card waiting to happen...
to put my cards on the table; I always wanted an attacking ITFC that went down fighting if it was going to lose-anything but the dirge of before. and we've certainly got that!
one of the main positives is the possession; we had the vast majority in every game, 65% at Cheltenham away from home and before their second goal it looked closer to 90% in that initial second half period. which is the galling thing; they get the ball and bang they score. Lets also bear in ind this is all they can hope to do-use that freak to launch long throws and be hard to beat with some options on the counter. But lets look at the defence in a sec...
most glaringly obvious to all is it seems were not effective enough in the final third with all that possession. Edwards looks great BUT he can't be a poor man's Zaha (head down and take the world on all by himself). he has to be one of the 5-6 ways we attack and create a goal scoring opportunity for anyone. problem is the full backs in this system are supposed to go forward and do the job of a winger in a 442 and get crosses in which, so far, isn't quite happening. so were stuck with going through the middle, which is too predicitable and easy to defend if that's your only route to goal.
Penney isn't doing it on the left, and unless KVY gets back to his pre injury form, he aint doing it on the right. one thing I know for sure; Donacien is NEVER going to do it as a right back in this team. he's a squad player offering cover when we have injuries.
Final major tactical observation for me is the high press. Liverpool are the masters at this; one jumps on the defender in possession and the other two are anticipating where they will erroneously pass the ball in order to intercept it and suddenly; bang, there are 3 of the best strikers in the league 25 yards from goal and a defence in panic. the rest is, invariably history. we must do more to win possession in the final third so we're not doing all this nice but largely ineffective passing around midfield. the forwards are so high that when they get the ball the opposition is already back in a defensive line and ready and waiting, no panic, just goal side and doing an effective job. thats not how a high press works well...
so what to do?
well if I'm PC, I'm thinking I can stick with these players in this system or I can tweak it and try and add some resilience in defence and maintain the attacking prowess that can blow teams away. if its me in charge, with no wins yet, a soft defence that can't play from the back and a clear issue with getting width, crosses and chances created for the front three I'd switch it to a 3 at the back in a 3412 as follows:
Hladky - surely still better than Holy-remember that calamity v Colchester...? Hladky hasn't done anything that daft. yet...
cb- Burgess
cb-Wolfy (only until Edmundson is back). he hit some long diagonals yesterday that achieved nothing but looked better overall. still more hoofs than passes.
Cb- Harper - he's got so much class, pace, skill, technique he is the perfect player to play out from the back which this system relies on as much as an effective high press. he'd be good in the air and calm under pressure. perfect.
mid- Evans
mid- Carroll-both are perfect to sit in and spray passes, collect from
right wing back - Burns. or KVY if he's on form.
left wing back - Coulson-he's seemingly from a higher level and says he can get to the byline and cross, same applies to Burns. Piggot is good in the air so its worth doing.
AMC- Fraser- get him in the no10 with two wingers flying down the flanks and two forwards ahead of him and still has his own option to have a go. don't think were being/making the most of him.
forward- Edwards-give him licence to drift right or left, he's a defenders worst nightmare-running at them with pace and skill into the box. just be less one dimensional than Zaha!
CF- Piggot or Norwood. I completely take ITFC's point; Norwood looks a very effective point man over Piggot's more Sherringham style but as Top Bunk says, he's a red card waiting to happen...
Good analysis, Bucky.
As I said on the Cheltenham thread, I also agree that our full-backs just aren't offering enough in the current system. Penney shows glimpses, but both KVY and Donacien have struggled so far. Hopefully with KVY, it's just a case of him getting up to speed with match fitness and getting comfortable on the pitch after long injury lay-offs. Regarding possession, as you say, we've largely dominated games - but I guess we're expected to, considering the quality we have on the pitch. In an alternative universe, Fraser scored the penalty against MK Dons and Bonne scored the open goal against Cheltenham and we could be unbeaten with seven points from nine. But it's all fine margins and we are where we are because we cannot see games out and the players are getting used to one another.
I'm not sure how I feel with your formation and starting eleven. I understand the solution of putting three centre-backs in (and the theory of putting Harper back there), but I'm uncomfortable playing players in unfamiliar or new positions. I'm also uncomfortable setting ourselves up too defensively, as I'd hate for us to handle sustained pressure. If we were to field three centre-backs, I'd like Burgess and Edmondson either side of Wolfenden, and allow the latter to push forward a bit. I'd stick with Harper and Evans in central midfield, as it's the only area that is really working. I'd definitely encourage them both to do more of what they did against Morecambe, ping out passes and keep the attack ticking - which we're seeing less of against Cheltenham and Burton. I'd like to see Burns and Coulson in the wing-back positions, I genuinely believe they offer an improvement on what we've fielded so far. Fraser needs to be central, Edwards needs to be starting, and Pigott presumably needs a bit more time - although we've got a proven goalscorer at this level in Norwood.