Is Martin interested in playing this way? It doesn’t seem like it.Is that you Russ?
Transfer Rumours Summer 2024
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Smelled like one where we were interested for the purpose of getting promoted, but never beyond that. Mowbray signed him at Aberdeen and saw enough of him at close quarters for me to be pretty comfortable with it
Possible he was just telling someone his surname
Discussion in our office at work today about Premier League transfers and financing rules - and it's led me to this slightly long post that I want to get off my chest on the topic of Financial Fair Play + Profit & Sustainability Rules... bear with me
A lot of people in the UK totally do not understand FFP/PSR at all. And in all honesty, I don’t really blame them because I don’t think there’s much FFP/PSR literate journalism and reporting going on in this country. Which maybe even reflects badly on the governing bodies. When you are enforcing rule changes at any level, it's important to ensure your base is educated. If you can't educate the fans directly, you certainly need to educate the people who are in a position to educate the fans (in this instance, the media). I can remember when VAR came in, I was working in a PL club in the comms/media dept and they invited us to Stockley Park to spend a day with the PL and get a full walkthrough, ask questions, discuss how we should communicate about VAR online in-game etc
Anyway, I digress...
The PL finance rules are not overly easy to understand and explain, which contributes to a lot of the confusion and misplaced anger of fans, IMO. I have the benefit of seeing more stringent, hard cap rules in sports leagues like the NBA and NFL and then the softer cap rules from the likes of MLB. As a general rule, their writer base and media in general are so much more clued up on the cap rules, the financial restrictions and what it means on a deal-by-deal basis and for each trading window. And in turn, that means that the majority of the fans understand what is going on and how it will impact their team's activities. I appreciate that we are very early on in the financial rules process in this country compared to the US where this sort of thing is more commonplace and entrenched in people's understanding of the leagues as fans, but still...
Anyway, aside from the fact that the rules are not really fit for purpose (in my opinion, more on that later) - the fact they aren't easily communicated or displayed or shown publicly with clarity makes the system so much more difficult to understand. In Serie A, for example, all deal terms and finances are declared, therefore fans know exactly where their club stands. The PL's half-baked approach is just all a bit confusing and cloak and dagger. If the governing bodies and associated stakeholders can't communicate the rules with clarity, then how can fans ever be expected to understand?
And this is where we are with Saints right now. A lot of people do not understand the idea of the three-year cycle of FFP and the PSR. A lot of people don't understand why Ipswich seem to be having an easier time than us, because they don't appreciate that what happened in 2022/23 with the £150m spend and relegation is still relevant to informing what we can do and can't do now without putting ourselves in a position of exposure to financial and competitive penalties. Really, the only club which is comparable to Saints in terms of the present FFP approach is Leicester City, and if you look at what the two clubs have spent then we have outspent them by quite a distance. It's about £35m to £55m on that front I think
I'll finish by saying I don't really agree with the PL's current approach to financial rules and this idea of having an arbitrary number for the line in the sand of 'your losses cannot surpass this amount in a three-season period' and it really isn't a great way to do things. It would be far more logical to have an anchored system where team's capabilities in the transfer markets are anchored year-by-year and are weighted by their overall club revenue, meaning that we can account for fluctuations in the TV deals or league table prize money etc. However, that is not the path the league has chosen... for better or worse. They would argue that if every club's capabilities were different then it would jeopardise competition, which perhaps isn't unfair, but presently you have clubs like Chelsea who can quite easily skirt around the rules and fiddle the numbers by having tonnes of players on the books and just keeping the player trading flowing, while clubs like Saints are having to argue over every half million while trying to sell Paul Onuachu to Trabzon's local skinflints
You would think there has to be reform and a rewrite of the rules on the way in the not too distant future with the amount of clubs at risk and falling foul of these rules and then just skirting round them with clever/sneaky/****ty (delete as applicable) transfer dealings with other clubs who need to tidy up their balance sheets
If you made it this far, you're at the end, well done and thanks for reading
A lot of people in the UK totally do not understand FFP/PSR at all. And in all honesty, I don’t really blame them because I don’t think there’s much FFP/PSR literate journalism and reporting going on in this country. Which maybe even reflects badly on the governing bodies. When you are enforcing rule changes at any level, it's important to ensure your base is educated. If you can't educate the fans directly, you certainly need to educate the people who are in a position to educate the fans (in this instance, the media). I can remember when VAR came in, I was working in a PL club in the comms/media dept and they invited us to Stockley Park to spend a day with the PL and get a full walkthrough, ask questions, discuss how we should communicate about VAR online in-game etc
Anyway, I digress...
The PL finance rules are not overly easy to understand and explain, which contributes to a lot of the confusion and misplaced anger of fans, IMO. I have the benefit of seeing more stringent, hard cap rules in sports leagues like the NBA and NFL and then the softer cap rules from the likes of MLB. As a general rule, their writer base and media in general are so much more clued up on the cap rules, the financial restrictions and what it means on a deal-by-deal basis and for each trading window. And in turn, that means that the majority of the fans understand what is going on and how it will impact their team's activities. I appreciate that we are very early on in the financial rules process in this country compared to the US where this sort of thing is more commonplace and entrenched in people's understanding of the leagues as fans, but still...
Anyway, aside from the fact that the rules are not really fit for purpose (in my opinion, more on that later) - the fact they aren't easily communicated or displayed or shown publicly with clarity makes the system so much more difficult to understand. In Serie A, for example, all deal terms and finances are declared, therefore fans know exactly where their club stands. The PL's half-baked approach is just all a bit confusing and cloak and dagger. If the governing bodies and associated stakeholders can't communicate the rules with clarity, then how can fans ever be expected to understand?
And this is where we are with Saints right now. A lot of people do not understand the idea of the three-year cycle of FFP and the PSR. A lot of people don't understand why Ipswich seem to be having an easier time than us, because they don't appreciate that what happened in 2022/23 with the £150m spend and relegation is still relevant to informing what we can do and can't do now without putting ourselves in a position of exposure to financial and competitive penalties. Really, the only club which is comparable to Saints in terms of the present FFP approach is Leicester City, and if you look at what the two clubs have spent then we have outspent them by quite a distance. It's about £35m to £55m on that front I think
I'll finish by saying I don't really agree with the PL's current approach to financial rules and this idea of having an arbitrary number for the line in the sand of 'your losses cannot surpass this amount in a three-season period' and it really isn't a great way to do things. It would be far more logical to have an anchored system where team's capabilities in the transfer markets are anchored year-by-year and are weighted by their overall club revenue, meaning that we can account for fluctuations in the TV deals or league table prize money etc. However, that is not the path the league has chosen... for better or worse. They would argue that if every club's capabilities were different then it would jeopardise competition, which perhaps isn't unfair, but presently you have clubs like Chelsea who can quite easily skirt around the rules and fiddle the numbers by having tonnes of players on the books and just keeping the player trading flowing, while clubs like Saints are having to argue over every half million while trying to sell Paul Onuachu to Trabzon's local skinflints
You would think there has to be reform and a rewrite of the rules on the way in the not too distant future with the amount of clubs at risk and falling foul of these rules and then just skirting round them with clever/sneaky/****ty (delete as applicable) transfer dealings with other clubs who need to tidy up their balance sheets
If you made it this far, you're at the end, well done and thanks for reading
Agree with all of that (and probably the bits I skim readDiscussion in our office at work today about Premier League transfers and financing rules - and it's led me to this slightly long post that I want to get off my chest on the topic of Financial Fair Play + Profit & Sustainability Rules... bear with me
A lot of people in the UK totally do not understand FFP/PSR at all. And in all honesty, I don’t really blame them because I don’t think there’s much FFP/PSR literate journalism and reporting going on in this country. Which maybe even reflects badly on the governing bodies. When you are enforcing rule changes at any level, it's important to ensure your base is educated. If you can't educate the fans directly, you certainly need to educate the people who are in a position to educate the fans (in this instance, the media). I can remember when VAR came in, I was working in a PL club in the comms/media dept and they invited us to Stockley Park to spend a day with the PL and get a full walkthrough, ask questions, discuss how we should communicate about VAR online in-game etc
Anyway, I digress...
The PL finance rules are not overly easy to understand and explain, which contributes to a lot of the confusion and misplaced anger of fans, IMO. I have the benefit of seeing more stringent, hard cap rules in sports leagues like the NBA and NFL and then the softer cap rules from the likes of MLB. As a general rule, their writer base and media in general are so much more clued up on the cap rules, the financial restrictions and what it means on a deal-by-deal basis and for each trading window. And in turn, that means that the majority of the fans understand what is going on and how it will impact their team's activities. I appreciate that we are very early on in the financial rules process in this country compared to the US where this sort of thing is more commonplace and entrenched in people's understanding of the leagues as fans, but still...
Anyway, aside from the fact that the rules are not really fit for purpose (in my opinion, more on that later) - the fact they aren't easily communicated or displayed or shown publicly with clarity makes the system so much more difficult to understand. In Serie A, for example, all deal terms and finances are declared, therefore fans know exactly where their club stands. The PL's half-baked approach is just all a bit confusing and cloak and dagger. If the governing bodies and associated stakeholders can't communicate the rules with clarity, then how can fans ever be expected to understand?
And this is where we are with Saints right now. A lot of people do not understand the idea of the three-year cycle of FFP and the PSR. A lot of people don't understand why Ipswich seem to be having an easier time than us, because they don't appreciate that what happened in 2022/23 with the £150m spend and relegation is still relevant to informing what we can do and can't do now without putting ourselves in a position of exposure to financial and competitive penalties. Really, the only club which is comparable to Saints in terms of the present FFP approach is Leicester City, and if you look at what the two clubs have spent then we have outspent them by quite a distance. It's about £35m to £55m on that front I think
I'll finish by saying I don't really agree with the PL's current approach to financial rules and this idea of having an arbitrary number for the line in the sand of 'your losses cannot surpass this amount in a three-season period' and it really isn't a great way to do things. It would be far more logical to have an anchored system where team's capabilities in the transfer markets are anchored year-by-year and are weighted by their overall club revenue, meaning that we can account for fluctuations in the TV deals or league table prize money etc. However, that is not the path the league has chosen... for better or worse. They would argue that if every club's capabilities were different then it would jeopardise competition, which perhaps isn't unfair, but presently you have clubs like Chelsea who can quite easily skirt around the rules and fiddle the numbers by having tonnes of players on the books and just keeping the player trading flowing, while clubs like Saints are having to argue over every half million while trying to sell Paul Onuachu to Trabzon's local skinflints
You would think there has to be reform and a rewrite of the rules on the way in the not too distant future with the amount of clubs at risk and falling foul of these rules and then just skirting round them with clever/sneaky/****ty (delete as applicable) transfer dealings with other clubs who need to tidy up their balance sheets
If you made it this far, you're at the end, well done and thanks for reading
) apart from the bit on Ipswich being able to spend more because of our spending in 22/23. I get that the didn't have that massive expenditure like we did in 22/23. But they also had L1 revenue whereas we had PL. They also didn't make a transfer profit of £100m+ in 23/24. There are definitely other reasons why Ipswich seemingly able to outspend us. Probably a combination of our loan repayment, less owner investment and also a significantly higher wage bill.
I think wages is probably the main reason we need to sell to buy as Martin alluded to.
Yeah, there's also that. Ipswich are in a rapid scaling period, as in business terms they have suddenly exploded and are now experiencing revenues that are way out of kilter with anything they were receiving in the past couple of years. Saints had a terrible, terrible financial year in 22/23 (on top of the dreadful football), then spent 23/24 trying to put it right on and off the field, while taking a huge financial hit in the process due to not being a PL club any more - and as you say, on top of all that we had various debts to clear such as the Covid loan and legacy paymentsAgree with all of that (and probably the bits I skim read
There are definitely other reasons why Ipswich seemingly able to outspend us. Probably a combination of our loan repayment, less owner investment and also a significantly higher wage bill.
I think wages is probably the main reason we need to sell to buy as Martin alluded to.
I don't agree with it all but it is what it is for now and therefore we must abide by it. My approach would be a two-fold one that relies on club revenue and anything else on top that the owner(s) which to add. It's quite simplistic and I'm sure people will duly pick holes in it but here it is ...
Part 1 - The club is always responsible for the wages. If club earns 'X' and therefore can spend 'Y' on wages, that's it. The club is always liable for the wages. You can play the 3 year rolling business or whatever, that's fine.
Part 2 - The club can pay the transfer fee as well, but, if they have an owner that wants to cover this part, so be it. The club is never liable to cover the fee if it is agreed to be paid by the owner. It is then an agreement between the selling club, the buying club and the relevant owners about whether to take this risk.
Example:
Saints wish to buy Matt O'Riley. Saints can afford his wages (let's say £50k pw for arguments sake) based on the rest of the squad wages, incoming TV money to cover it etc. Saints can't afford the £25m that Celtic want as well - or perhaps not willing to go that high. They can only afford £15m. Dragan can offer to pay the additional £10m or the whole £25m or any other combination. Whatever Dragan agrees to supplement, he is liable for, not Saints. Celtic may then say that they're willing to spread the money from Saints over some years but want Dragan's slice up front (to reduce any risks).
This route allows clubs the chance to break through the current barriers to challenging the elite but reduces the risk of the clubs themselves being left in limbo if the owner walks away. It does also make life easier for the existing super-owners to supplement their clubs as well though.
... I'm now open to see how it can be ripped apart (no offence will be taken!)
Part 1 - The club is always responsible for the wages. If club earns 'X' and therefore can spend 'Y' on wages, that's it. The club is always liable for the wages. You can play the 3 year rolling business or whatever, that's fine.
Part 2 - The club can pay the transfer fee as well, but, if they have an owner that wants to cover this part, so be it. The club is never liable to cover the fee if it is agreed to be paid by the owner. It is then an agreement between the selling club, the buying club and the relevant owners about whether to take this risk.
Example:
Saints wish to buy Matt O'Riley. Saints can afford his wages (let's say £50k pw for arguments sake) based on the rest of the squad wages, incoming TV money to cover it etc. Saints can't afford the £25m that Celtic want as well - or perhaps not willing to go that high. They can only afford £15m. Dragan can offer to pay the additional £10m or the whole £25m or any other combination. Whatever Dragan agrees to supplement, he is liable for, not Saints. Celtic may then say that they're willing to spread the money from Saints over some years but want Dragan's slice up front (to reduce any risks).
This route allows clubs the chance to break through the current barriers to challenging the elite but reduces the risk of the clubs themselves being left in limbo if the owner walks away. It does also make life easier for the existing super-owners to supplement their clubs as well though.
... I'm now open to see how it can be ripped apart (no offence will be taken!)
Basically we need to sell before we buy again, hence the sudden pause in transfer dealings.
Discussion in our office at work today about Premier League transfers and financing rules - and it's led me to this slightly long post that I want to get off my chest on the topic of Financial Fair Play + Profit & Sustainability Rules... bear with me
A lot of people in the UK totally do not understand FFP/PSR at all. And in all honesty, I don’t really blame them because I don’t think there’s much FFP/PSR literate journalism and reporting going on in this country. Which maybe even reflects badly on the governing bodies. When you are enforcing rule changes at any level, it's important to ensure your base is educated. If you can't educate the fans directly, you certainly need to educate the people who are in a position to educate the fans (in this instance, the media). I can remember when VAR came in, I was working in a PL club in the comms/media dept and they invited us to Stockley Park to spend a day with the PL and get a full walkthrough, ask questions, discuss how we should communicate about VAR online in-game etc
Anyway, I digress...
The PL finance rules are not overly easy to understand and explain, which contributes to a lot of the confusion and misplaced anger of fans, IMO. I have the benefit of seeing more stringent, hard cap rules in sports leagues like the NBA and NFL and then the softer cap rules from the likes of MLB. As a general rule, their writer base and media in general are so much more clued up on the cap rules, the financial restrictions and what it means on a deal-by-deal basis and for each trading window. And in turn, that means that the majority of the fans understand what is going on and how it will impact their team's activities. I appreciate that we are very early on in the financial rules process in this country compared to the US where this sort of thing is more commonplace and entrenched in people's understanding of the leagues as fans, but still...
Anyway, aside from the fact that the rules are not really fit for purpose (in my opinion, more on that later) - the fact they aren't easily communicated or displayed or shown publicly with clarity makes the system so much more difficult to understand. In Serie A, for example, all deal terms and finances are declared, therefore fans know exactly where their club stands. The PL's half-baked approach is just all a bit confusing and cloak and dagger. If the governing bodies and associated stakeholders can't communicate the rules with clarity, then how can fans ever be expected to understand?
And this is where we are with Saints right now. A lot of people do not understand the idea of the three-year cycle of FFP and the PSR. A lot of people don't understand why Ipswich seem to be having an easier time than us, because they don't appreciate that what happened in 2022/23 with the £150m spend and relegation is still relevant to informing what we can do and can't do now without putting ourselves in a position of exposure to financial and competitive penalties. Really, the only club which is comparable to Saints in terms of the present FFP approach is Leicester City, and if you look at what the two clubs have spent then we have outspent them by quite a distance. It's about £35m to £55m on that front I think
I'll finish by saying I don't really agree with the PL's current approach to financial rules and this idea of having an arbitrary number for the line in the sand of 'your losses cannot surpass this amount in a three-season period' and it really isn't a great way to do things. It would be far more logical to have an anchored system where team's capabilities in the transfer markets are anchored year-by-year and are weighted by their overall club revenue, meaning that we can account for fluctuations in the TV deals or league table prize money etc. However, that is not the path the league has chosen... for better or worse. They would argue that if every club's capabilities were different then it would jeopardise competition, which perhaps isn't unfair, but presently you have clubs like Chelsea who can quite easily skirt around the rules and fiddle the numbers by having tonnes of players on the books and just keeping the player trading flowing, while clubs like Saints are having to argue over every half million while trying to sell Paul Onuachu to Trabzon's local skinflints
You would think there has to be reform and a rewrite of the rules on the way in the not too distant future with the amount of clubs at risk and falling foul of these rules and then just skirting round them with clever/sneaky/****ty (delete as applicable) transfer dealings with other clubs who need to tidy up their balance sheets
If you made it this far, you're at the end, well done and thanks for reading
I think I understand the rules to basic level, what I don’t have at my disposal are the numbers. We spent a lot of money to get relegated but the sales of our golden boys recouped a significant chunk of that.how much did we lose in our EPL season? I’m guessing it was significant enough.
Great points DTLW
Although the accounts of all PL clubs are made public, Ltd companies don’t have to file accounts for 9 months (unless EPL makes them report sooner) therefore us fans could be three windows behind the facts.
As a fan we’ve never been privy to club budgets and therefore it’s not really an issue for me personally.
I know it’s not my money, but if it was up to me I would potentially risk a little bit this window knowing we can make sales in January
Although the accounts of all PL clubs are made public, Ltd companies don’t have to file accounts for 9 months (unless EPL makes them report sooner) therefore us fans could be three windows behind the facts.
As a fan we’ve never been privy to club budgets and therefore it’s not really an issue for me personally.
I know it’s not my money, but if it was up to me I would potentially risk a little bit this window knowing we can make sales in January
Also, to those who say I don’t agree with it - which s most of us - what exactly don’t you agree with? we should spend more money, but whose money and where from? We don’t have a PIF so if we lose more than 105m, that could spell doom for a club of our size. I think we are all wanting to see signings and blaming PSR for stopping us spending monies we don’t have. It’s more than PSR that’s broken, money has broken everything from academies to wages at the top.
Yeah, this makes it so much harder. The 'for an undisclosed fee' culture is a curse with trying to understand financial rules as a fan. It's why the Serie A system of having to disclose the financial elements in full when completing a transfer would be far more informative for the bigger picture of PSR
Sounds like Ox still might happen. The 'move to Liverpool till all your joints are dry and then come back to Saints' pattern continues
"According to a claim in the Turkish media, Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain’s proposed transfer to Southampton is being held up because of his demands from his current club Besiktas.
The 30-year-old has been linked with a return to the Premier League side after becoming surplus to requirements with the Black Eagles.
Sporx report Besiktas are looking to offload Oxlade-Chamberlain this summer as they want to get him off their wage bill. However, the player has responded by asking for a year of his salary as compensation if he agrees to terminate his contract. He reportedly earns €2.5m a season."
"According to a claim in the Turkish media, Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain’s proposed transfer to Southampton is being held up because of his demands from his current club Besiktas.
The 30-year-old has been linked with a return to the Premier League side after becoming surplus to requirements with the Black Eagles.
Sporx report Besiktas are looking to offload Oxlade-Chamberlain this summer as they want to get him off their wage bill. However, the player has responded by asking for a year of his salary as compensation if he agrees to terminate his contract. He reportedly earns €2.5m a season."
This makes no sense to me. We already have Stewart and Lallana clogging up the medical department. Would be another big waste of cash.
We are clearly skint so we need to stop wasting money not spend it on more broken people
I'd take that. We have a very small history of doing quite well with ex-Barcelona loanees.
Yeah, I am very much against signing AOC too
Southampton and Barcelona - it’s just a home from home