State vs Religion

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Burly (RIP mate) lived and worked in Saudi for a few years. I remember him telling me about a story about when he was over there. Women weren't allowed to drive at the time and there weren't really any laws for drivers to abide by. He said men would fly around the streets with kids in the cars. These kids would be in the front seat without a seat belt on. He told me that if kids were involved in an accident which sent them flying through the windscreen and ultimately to their deaths, it was never the parents fault. It was always 'Gods will'. I find that ****ing hideous.

It is stories like that which strengthen my belief that religion is holding back mankind from progressing. If you want to have faith, that's fine. Whatever your religion is, though. Do not hide behind a ****ing book and somebody who you have never encountered in your life. I'm man enough to take responsibility for my own failures and I stand by my decisions that end badly, for me. I don't think anybody should palm that off when life gets hard to make things easier for themselves. That is just cowardice.
 
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Simple Saffy said:
Burly (RIP mate) lived and worked in Saudi for a few years. I remember him telling me about a story about when he was over there. Women weren't allowed to drive at the time and there weren't really any laws for drivers to abide by. He said men would fly around the streets with kids in the cars. These kids would be in the front seat without a seat belt on. He told me that if kids were involved in an accident which sent them flying through the windscreen and ultimately to their deaths, it was never the parents fault. It was always 'Gods will'. I find that ****ing hideous.

It is stories like that which strengthen my belief that religion is holding back mankind from progressing. If you want to have faith, that's fine. Whatever your religion is, though. Do not hide behind a ****ing book and somebody who you have never encountered in your life. I'm man enough to take responsibility for my own failures and I stand by my decisions that end badly, for me. I don't think anybody should palm that off when life gets hard to make things easier for themselves. That is just cowardice.
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Absolutely. It's an example of what I was referring to earlier when I put that the insecurity seems to be from those that need an imaginary friend and a book that takes away their personal obligation on how to behave.
 
Simple Saffy said:
It is stories like that which strengthen my belief that religion is holding back mankind from progressing. If you want to have faith, that's fine. Whatever your religion is, though. Do not hide behind a ****ing book and somebody who you have never encountered in your life. I'm man enough to take responsibility for my own failures and I stand by my decisions that end badly, for me. I don't think anybody should palm that off when life gets hard to make things easier for themselves. That is just cowardice.
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Good post but I would say that people who are hard wired to hide behind religion or the teachings of a book would always find something to replace that with if it didn't exist. The basis of all religions (as far as I know) is pretty much consistent in that it's all about looking after each other and being tolerant of people it's only when the finer details and interpretation comes into play that things go wrong.
 
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luvgonzo said:
Good post but I would say that people who are hard wired to hide behind religion or the teachings of a book would always find something to replace that with if it didn't exist. The basis of all religions (as far as I know) is pretty much consistent in that it's all about looking after each other and being tolerant of people it's only when the finer details and interpretation comes into play that things go wrong.
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I don't disagree with much of that, but going back to the initial question, I'd rather our rules for society came from sound reasoning rather than the words in a dubious book.
 
DMD said:
I don't disagree with much of that, but going back to the initial question, I'd rather our rules for society came from sound reasoning rather than the words in a dubious book.
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Rules only cater for do’s and dont’s.

Whilst not being religious there’s a value to some of the basic teachings, with the likes of ‘treat others as you would want to be treated yourself’ being even more salient than it ever was, in the current self absorbed societies that have developed in the modern era.
 
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Tobes said:
Rules only cater for do’s and dont’s.

Whilst not being religious there’s a value to some of the basic teachings, with the likes of ‘treat others as you would want to be treated yourself’ being even more salient than it ever was, in the current self absorbed societies that have developed in the modern era.
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Again, I wouldn't disagree. I just prefer it to be based on what's right, rather than what a book or cleric says is God's will. Those basic values are inherent in most non-Abrahimic beliefs and philosophies too. They don't have a monopoly on nice.
 
DMD said:
I don't disagree with much of that, but going back to the initial question, I'd rather our rules for society came from sound reasoning rather than the words in a dubious book.
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But as I said the basis of Christianity (and other religions) is sound and what pretty much everyone wants so I don't have a problem with it, when people start interpreting for their own desires that is when problems start. If we then go back to the OP and your suggestion I don't see why we cannot take the basis of Christianity (and other religions) and then build that into sound reasoning so that any rules are representative of the majority of the country and not one set of beliefs or another.
 
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Tobes said:
Rules only cater for do’s and dont’s.

Whilst not being religious there’s a value to some of the basic teachings, with the likes of ‘treat others as you would want to be treated yourself’ being even more salient than it ever was, in the current self absorbed societies that have developed in the modern era.
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<ok>
 
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luvgonzo said:
But as I said the basis of Christianity (and other religions) is sound and what pretty much everyone wants so I don't have a problem with it, when people start interpreting for their own desires that is when problems start. If we then go back to the OP and your suggestion I don't see why we cannot take the basis of Christianity (and other religions) and then build that into sound reasoning so that any rules are representative of the majority of the country and not one set of beliefs or another.
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But philosophies hold those values too, and they have arguably come from a more considered and reasoned approach. Religion doesn't have a monopoly on good things, and has a history of being used as an excuse for many very bad things. Religion is also built on weak foundations.

I'm not proposing throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I just don't believe being religious is a synonym for being nice. It's often an excuse for forcing your views on others.
 
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Tel said:
Human brains have their limits, that’s why we need fairytales to teach us what is right and wrong.
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It's interest to watch posters on here that agree with a concept, but still try to argue against because of who's said it. God will hate them for it.
 
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DMD said:
But philosophies hold those values too, and they have arguably come from a more considered and reasoned approach. Religion doesn't have a monopoly on good things, and has a history of being used as an excuse for many very bad things. Religion is also built on weak foundations.

I'm not proposing throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I just don't believe being religious is a synonym for being nice. It's often an excuse for forcing your views on others.
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There are a lot of people who have religious beliefs so a combination of their beliefs along with sound reasoning would be the obvious answer, if you dismiss their beliefs you create a group of dissidents that would be pointless and foolish. There's also nothing to say that this sound reasoning is actually that, it's just opinion and no less or more valid than the basis of religion. People get things wrong regardless of their faith or lack of it.
 
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luvgonzo said:
There are a lot of people who have religious beliefs so a combination of their beliefs along with sound reasoning would be the obvious answer, if you dismiss their beliefs you create a group of dissidents that would be pointless and foolish. There's also nothing to say that this sound reasoning is actually that, it's just opinion and no less or more valid than the basis of religion. People get things wrong regardless of their faith or lack of it.
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If they hold their beliefs from sound reasoning, then that's fine. If they hold those beliefs simply because they read it in a book and haven't questioned the validity outside of that, then it's an empty position . The decision is reached without religion.

I'd question the validity of the opinion of someone that can't determine right from wrong without having to refer to a dubious book.
 
DMD said:
If they hold their beliefs from sound reasoning, then that's fine. If they hold those beliefs simply because they read it in a book and haven't questioned the validity outside of that, then it's an empty position . The decision is reached without religion.

I'd question the validity of the opinion of someone that can't determine right from wrong without having to refer to a dubious book.
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So no matter what I've put forward regarding incorporating a huge chunk of people who have religious beliefs or simple faith in something that you cannot disprove and combining all of societies thoughts and wishes you just go back to they are wrong and we should ignore anything they say?
 
DMD said:
If they hold their beliefs from sound reasoning, then that's fine. If they hold those beliefs simply because they read it in a book and haven't questioned the validity outside of that, then it's an empty position . The decision is reached without religion.

I'd question the validity of the opinion of someone that can't determine right from wrong without having to refer to a dubious book.
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It’s far more nuanced than that imo. Many people appear to struggle to distinguish between right and wrong whether religious or not. However, I think it’s dismissive to suggest that those who choose to live by Christian principles, as needing to ‘refer to a book’. The ‘book’ is open to interpretation.

Where it all goes a bit strange & I generally think religions are a bit bonkers, is when extreme literal interpretation of some of the words in a book are made the cornerstone of people’s day to day lives, and serve literally no purpose.
For example, I grew up in an area that had a large Jewish community & I found the Sabbath switch absolutely barking https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_on_Shabbat

However, I remember saying this to a Jewish kid & he rightly pointed out that ‘your lot’ (I was Catholic) believe that a piece of wafer & wine with water, are literally the body & blood of Christ after the priest says a few words over them. I couldn’t go.
 
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