Southgate's done one...
- Thread starter bradymk2
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Pretty much. Everyone else largely gets on, accepts difference of opinion and carries on as normal.
Personally saddened by Southgate's departure and would have liked him to stay.
His methods haven't always been boring, although admittedly were this tournament. Even the boring games were better to watch than most of the ****e served up from 2004-2018 (Gerrard/Lampard launching long balls to Crouch etc). I think he represented a shift in management style - players spoken to as equals/adults rather than from a father figure/boss. It clearly worked results wise and the losses in the finals/semifinals were always relatively small margins and there was a definite change in attitude and togetherness within the national team. But life moves forward.
His methods haven't always been boring, although admittedly were this tournament. Even the boring games were better to watch than most of the ****e served up from 2004-2018 (Gerrard/Lampard launching long balls to Crouch etc). I think he represented a shift in management style - players spoken to as equals/adults rather than from a father figure/boss. It clearly worked results wise and the losses in the finals/semifinals were always relatively small margins and there was a definite change in attitude and togetherness within the national team. But life moves forward.
Whoever replaces Southgate, I think the lesson to be learned from this tournament is that we're still not as good technically as we thought we were. Ahead of the tournament we were among the favourites along with France, Portugal and Germany perhaps. Spain were not in the conversation. But lo and behold the tournament started and it quickly became obvious that they were playing better football than anyone else. Sure enough, in the final they schooled us on the ball and beat us. We weren't a million miles away from sneaking a result but we were a long way off competing with them technically. When Rodri went off they brought on some other lad you'd never heard of and they played even better. It's like they've got ranks of players who can all do what we can't.
Why is this? Do we just underrate other countries like Spain? Why aren't we able to get the ball down, knock it around them and win it back quickly through pressing like Spain did? Is it really personnel? Maybe we don't have the quality of players in the defensive third of the pitch. For all his plaudits I think Guehi looked awkward on the ball during this tournament, but I don't think it's fair or right to pin it on one player. A lot is made of England's inability to produce midfielders who can play in tight spaces. Maybe Mainoo is part of the answer to that in the long term. But this has been talked about for a long time and several players have been hailed as the solution. I'm sure Foden was seen as this player at one point, but then he's gradually become more of an attacker. Bellingham was seen as the future of England's midfield but now he too has started being used higher up. Is it an old-fashioned English attitude that if you have a bit of skill you have to play higher up?
At City we have Seri who is in that mould of the player England don't produce. But there's always a lot of unease around him. People want him playing higher up because he's good on the ball, and don't like the risks he takes further back at times. Is this indicative of the English mindset that stops us producing players who can be comfortable on the ball anywhere on the pitch? I realised I've asked several questions here, I don't know the answers to any of them but I think it's all worth considering and I think it's what England need to solve to take the next step from an effective tournament team into a dominant international team.
Why is this? Do we just underrate other countries like Spain? Why aren't we able to get the ball down, knock it around them and win it back quickly through pressing like Spain did? Is it really personnel? Maybe we don't have the quality of players in the defensive third of the pitch. For all his plaudits I think Guehi looked awkward on the ball during this tournament, but I don't think it's fair or right to pin it on one player. A lot is made of England's inability to produce midfielders who can play in tight spaces. Maybe Mainoo is part of the answer to that in the long term. But this has been talked about for a long time and several players have been hailed as the solution. I'm sure Foden was seen as this player at one point, but then he's gradually become more of an attacker. Bellingham was seen as the future of England's midfield but now he too has started being used higher up. Is it an old-fashioned English attitude that if you have a bit of skill you have to play higher up?
At City we have Seri who is in that mould of the player England don't produce. But there's always a lot of unease around him. People want him playing higher up because he's good on the ball, and don't like the risks he takes further back at times. Is this indicative of the English mindset that stops us producing players who can be comfortable on the ball anywhere on the pitch? I realised I've asked several questions here, I don't know the answers to any of them but I think it's all worth considering and I think it's what England need to solve to take the next step from an effective tournament team into a dominant international team.
Youre thinking from purely an english point of view
And from english media
Zubumendi is not an unknown
Hes played almost 200 times for his home team sociedad
For.me the player of the tournament was ruiz
England tries to fit every top player in instead of playing to players strengths
It sounds simple but sometimes it is
Gordon got 4 minutes in the whole tournament
And foden was put outwide for whatever reason
Trippier was chosen instead of mitchell
Pre2008 spain were seen similar to england
Never finishes
Always falling short
Theyd won their one and only tournament, euros once in 1964 or so?
And since 2008 theyve won 4 tournaments
Its a very long and convoluted discussion
But it must just start from youth ages
You cant get such incredible generations within 15-20 years like that with luck
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I think it's evident at grassroots level that we still have an uncomfortable relationship with technical football. You hear about parents and coaches screaming at kids "don't mess about with it there", "just get rid of it", and so on. Even in the 5-a-side I play, it's jarring how many adults who've played football all their lives don't see anything wrong with just getting their head down and running straight for goal every time they get it, or rushing the ball forwards into a packed space to inevitably lose it time and time again, seemingly without ever noticing how much defending it's causing them to have to do when they keep giving the ball back. I'm not for one second saying that my local 5-a-side is remotely indicative of the England national setup, but I think it's maybe indicative of the way we view the game in this country, and I suspect that an equivalent local game in somewhere like Spain would be very different, and maybe this prevalent attitude means that foreign academies have a head start over English ones in producing players who are truly comfortable on the ball.
With Zubimendi that's part of my point. Spain weren't among the favourites but if they can lose Rodri, bring in someone else and still be the best technical team in the tournament then why weren't they? And why isn't Zubimendi (and others in their squad) better known? Like you say it's an English media thing. We go on about our talent but when it comes down to it we're not able to play the way Spain did. So how good actually is our squad?
The stuff about players in positions I think is irrelevant to what I'm talking about here; I really don't think Mitchell replacing Trippier or Gordon replacing Foden was the missing link to us being able to pass and move like Spain.
In fact, I think our pre-occupation with formations, selections which are never right and positions each player plays in might be another part of the wider problem of how the country sees the game. At all levels we talk about these things more than we talk about the actual practicalities of the game like moving the ball, choice of pass and pressing. It's an easier and maybe more interesting discussion point, but it neglects the most important factors.
And again you see this in grassroots too. At 5-a-side you'll routinely get people arguing about who needs to come back instead of staying up front after the team concedes 5 goals in a row by giving the ball away, but getting anyone to think about making an effort to stop giving the ball away is almost impossible.
I don't understand how Spain where not considered one of the 4 favourites .
They had won the Nations League which they took seriously and where rewarded .
It's not taken seriously enough here as we didn't even win one of our 6 group games .
We seem to have a mindset here which is disrespectful towards certain competitions.
he probably is well known in spain, but generally unless you play for real madrid or barcelona, you dont get too much outside coverage, i guess its similar to say an aston villa outside of the uk
most media around the world focuses on 5-6 clubs
regards to foden being outwide, it would be similar to spain playing pedri out there and benching williams, spain just played to their strengths, which was having williams and yamal out wide, both fearless and full of confidence players, spain adapted from their old tika taka ways to more vertical attacking play
england may not have won with a better left side, but i think it would have made england stronger
international tournaments are just so hard to win, you get one chance every 4 years for a euro or world cup, 2 years in between
but how have spain won 4 in 16 years? with two different styles
the spanish final thing is remarkable too even if it includes club football.. thats 23 major finals won in a row for spanish teams vs non spanish
culture, mentality, i think it all comes to it
spain never seem to have one talisman, its always a team, sum of the parts
kane for example, remarkable goalscoring record, but thats irrelevant when hes performing awful, but hes persisted with as hes some sort of talisman, over the team and i think thats been a common theme across england squads
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I think too much is made of this Spain being different in style from the tiki taka one. Not saying it wasn't different, but they still had the same principles of being so comfortable on the ball all over the pitch, and it was this that really gave them superiority over us rather than the quality of their wingers.
The Spanish finals stat is absolutely mental. No idea what to put that down to.
Yeah I agree with that. The club world cup too. That's absolutely massive in South America and so it should be. We as a country have seemed determined not to show any interest in the Nations League from the outset. The format of it could still be better mind.
yea but it is a vastly different style, they even had a game this euro with less possession than the opposition
why they are so good on the ball must come from the young ages
both their goals came from their wide play
i bet spanish teams dont get jeered if they pass the ball too much though
it needs someone far more intelligent than i, and probably a very long study
but i wouldnt be surprised if spanish culture, and the way they deal with stress has a bearing too
Not sure what you could change as it has really replaced friendlies .
You hear the same attitudes towards the Europa League and Conference Leagues .
Some idiot rang up Talk Sport last night and said we shouldn't take the Nations League serious .
Spain where runners up in 2021 then won it in 2023 .
There's a reason why they are successful and it's that they take every competition as though it's the world cup final
It’s interesting having this conversation after Southgate has stepped down.
He’s the first England manager in my lifetime who you can say has laid foundations for the future. He’s changed the way players view playing for the national side, as well as the fans view of the team. Not only that, but he’s completely changed the organisation of the team and brought it inline with the modern vision of St George’s Park. That’s an incredible body of work - even if he couldn’t get us a trophy.
We’re now in the regular mix of appearing at later stages of tournaments. In fact, the last three tournaments, we’ve only lost to the best team at each (I include Italy, who we seem to forget were excellent at the last Euros, and France who really should have beaten Argentina). If you think of the countries who regularly win things - they are very consistent and have a long history of competing at the right end of competitions. We have that now so it’s really set up for another manager to build on it.
Southgate has his flaws and his tactical ability is lacking at times - but the 8 years he’s been in charge - I can’t imagine anyone doing a better job with the organisation of things. On top of that - he’s been a modern man when social media and cultural politics has been at the fore front. That will become increasingly important.
He’s the first England manager in my lifetime who you can say has laid foundations for the future. He’s changed the way players view playing for the national side, as well as the fans view of the team. Not only that, but he’s completely changed the organisation of the team and brought it inline with the modern vision of St George’s Park. That’s an incredible body of work - even if he couldn’t get us a trophy.
We’re now in the regular mix of appearing at later stages of tournaments. In fact, the last three tournaments, we’ve only lost to the best team at each (I include Italy, who we seem to forget were excellent at the last Euros, and France who really should have beaten Argentina). If you think of the countries who regularly win things - they are very consistent and have a long history of competing at the right end of competitions. We have that now so it’s really set up for another manager to build on it.
Southgate has his flaws and his tactical ability is lacking at times - but the 8 years he’s been in charge - I can’t imagine anyone doing a better job with the organisation of things. On top of that - he’s been a modern man when social media and cultural politics has been at the fore front. That will become increasingly important.