Slow burn versus quick fix

[Smug in Boots]

I accept this isn't a precise science but I'd be interested to see what people have to say, especially as I don't particularly follow the PL. Some promoted teams will 'buy big' or bring in a raft of players and survive, Forest are an example of that but I still feel their bubble will burst.

However I've noticed that two small clubs, Brighton and Brentford, seem to have gradually built good sides, despite a few setbacks and sales, and are top half with Bournemouth not too far behind. All three teams are above big spenders like Everton, West Ham and Man Utd.

As I've said there are always exceptions that disprove the rules but, in an age of money being the main issue in the PL, it's encouraging to me that careful buying and selling, care of data and spending money on players who really fit your plan can work. Brentford have, in my opinion, shown that selling is just as important as buying and young ambitious players go there as a stepping stone but give their maximum.

I'm sure you can tell that I'm trying to be subtle and make a case for the way Speakman and the club are going about their business. Even with the likes of Hemir, Ekwah, Aouchiche, etc, we seem to be giving them enough of a role to be able to recoup our outlay or even make a profit.

Unless we want to go down the well trodden dusty road, of buying 'proven Championship players' I don't see any realistic option but to carry on. Im my mind there are only really two points of view ...

... either spend now to get to the PL as quickly as possible or take a few knocks, build a side on the great foundations we already have and go up with a real team who know each others game and who'll fight for each other.

I'm away to the shed now, I'm pretty sure I know where my tin hat is

 

[Scout73]

I accept this isn't a precise science but I'd be interested to see what people have to say, especially as I don't particularly follow the PL. Some promoted teams will 'buy big' or bring in a raft of players and survive, Forest are an example of that but I still feel their bubble will burst.

However I've noticed that two small clubs, Brighton and Brentford, seem to have gradually built good sides, despite a few setbacks and sales, and are top half with Bournemouth not too far behind. All three teams are above big spenders like Everton, West Ham and Man Utd.

As I've said there are always exceptions that disprove the rules but, in an age of money being the main issue in the PL, it's encouraging to me that careful buying and selling, care of data and spending money on players who really fit your plan. Brentford have, in my opinion, shown that selling is just as important as buying and young ambitious players go there as a stepping stone but give their maximum.

I'm sure you can tell that I'm trying to be subtle and make a case for the way Speakman and the club are going about their business. Even with the likes of Hemir, Ekwah, Aouchiche, etc, we seem to be giving them enough of a role to be able to recoup our outlay or even make a profit.

Unless we want to go down the well trodden dusty road, of buying 'proven Championship players' I don't see any realistic option but to carry on. Im my mind there are only really two points of view ...

... either spend now to get to the PL as quickly as possible or take a few knocks, build a side on the great foundations we already have and go up with a real team who know each others game and who'll fight for each other.

I'm away to the shed now, I'm pretty sure I know where my tin hat is

All about building strong foundations for me, no quick fixes as I want long term success

 

[Comfy]

I accept this isn't a precise science but I'd be interested to see what people have to say, especially as I don't particularly follow the PL. Some promoted teams will 'buy big' or bring in a raft of players and survive, Forest are an example of that but I still feel their bubble will burst.

However I've noticed that two small clubs, Brighton and Brentford, seem to have gradually built good sides, despite a few setbacks and sales, and are top half with Bournemouth not too far behind. All three teams are above big spenders like Everton, West Ham and Man Utd.

As I've said there are always exceptions that disprove the rules but, in an age of money being the main issue in the PL, it's encouraging to me that careful buying and selling, care of data and spending money on players who really fit your plan can work. Brentford have, in my opinion, shown that selling is just as important as buying and young ambitious players go there as a stepping stone but give their maximum.

I'm sure you can tell that I'm trying to be subtle and make a case for the way Speakman and the club are going about their business. Even with the likes of Hemir, Ekwah, Aouchiche, etc, we seem to be giving them enough of a role to be able to recoup our outlay or even make a profit.

Unless we want to go down the well trodden dusty road, of buying 'proven Championship players' I don't see any realistic option but to carry on. Im my mind there are only really two points of view ...

... either spend now to get to the PL as quickly as possible or take a few knocks, build a side on the great foundations we already have and go up with a real team who know each others game and who'll fight for each other.

I'm away to the shed now, I'm pretty sure I know where my tin hat is

As I think too, got to walk before you run

 

[cumbrianmackem]

I'm all in for steady away, we're having a good season, yes it could be a bit better but it's light years away from the last decade so in my view that's steady progress.
I know KLD has a 5 year plan, never been sure telling everyone is a good idea as it puts a time pressure on those at the sharp end on the pitch.
We're competing at the right end of the table, holding our own and we're half way through the season.
Happy to give these kids time as it's such a joy seeing them giving they're all on the pitch, the aftermatch pictures of Jobe etc tells a story for me, they were distraught at losing in Friday, how many years did we see our players just shrug their shoulders and stroll away after such a defeat.
We're in a good place imo.

 

[Robertson]

Great post Smug.

Spending big and crushing the Championship has some attraction. The buzz, the excitement. We've been out of the PL for a long time now. In the past, I would have been completely up for this.

The downside is, when we get to the PL, that money was probably spent on high quality Championship players who would then be on very nice wages. If a few were not up to week in week out PL standard then there's a weight hanging on the club. We've all seen what can happen when gravity does what it does. The problems wouldn't be insurmountable but mean the club could be divided, instead of pushing forward as one.

I'm going to enjoy where we are, our journey and the steady incremental improvement. Setbacks and impatience are real so it's not all rosy, plain sailing.

 

[Nads]

Both great to watch as well, Brighton and Brentford, Bournemouth too.

Shows what can be done.

All have invested hundreds of millions mind, but not on the scale of the bigger boys.

All carried multiple players up with them, several remain either at those clubs or elsewhere at the PL.

For me. It shows it can be done without panic. Forest went the other way and got it right in the end, but generally throwing money at it gives you and unbalanced side that struggles.

For me, we want to be looking closely at Brentford. They sold top talent to grow, which allowed them to keep others. They have a magnificent, forward thinking manager and play really attack minded football.

We can emulate them, with a far higher ceiling. It’s all in the planning and I do have absolute faith we have a ‘what if we get up a year early’ plan in place.

Rarely has the team that’s ’built a team to walk the Championship’ walked the Championship. That’s only happened to surprise relegations.

 

[Chunksafc]

Brighton had some serious money pumped in by their owner, it's not quite the "little club" doing well story it's made out to be, they do however have a fantastic data led approach that means they find players fairly cheaply and can sell them for big money. Brentford the same to a lesser extent but their owner worked with Tony Bloom previously and has the same approach to data etc.

The way we are doing it is the right way in my opinion, we need solid foundations to build on, even if that means being a play off club and then a yo yo club for a few seasons.

I love we are bringing through academy players, developing them and giving them a chance to shine in the first team, I feel it's important to the club and also the wider area to have that local link.

The football we play at times is a joy to watch as is watching the younger ones develop into good players.

Take Jobe and Rigg as examples, they won't be here long, but watching them grow as players and people is wonderful. They give their all for the shirt every game and that's worth more to me than some random player here because we offered him more money and will be off as soon as a better offer comes along.

 

[Nads]

Jobe, Rigg, Cirks and Trai could absolutely remain in a PL first 11.

Meps if he’s here. Mundle, Patto and Mundle would have a chance.

We’d need 4-5 PL proven to have a shot at it, straight out the gate. That’s £150million or so as a starting point.

Its’s double that mo et wise for just being in That league. We could do it.

 

[samwise_new]

only way to go imho, @Nads said it already 'without panic'.

when we went up with PR we certainly did not have a squad full of 'names' apart from SNQ and SKP who was attracting interest and we were written off before the season kicked off, we reached 7th.

now you can tell me that reidy and sacko were great managers/coachs but the one thing i remember from then was the togetherness in the squad and currently, this squad are very similar.

 

[Smug in Boots]

I do appreciate, by the way, that those three 'little' clubs have spent 'big money' but it's generally from the income of selling players they're developed. I don't think they're plucky little clubs throwing in all their academy products ...

... it's money they've made, on the whole, not the massive continual debts the likes of Man Utd and Everton clock up to get nowhere.

Newcastle are another example of spectacular high spending failure but they're state owned so irrelevant to the discussion.

 

[Chunksafc]

It will be interesting to see the scramble next season if the EFL and PL actually enforce the PSR regulations properly.

We were well ahead of the game on that front from the last accounts and with the cracking commercial deals we have rolled out this year, we should be even better placed.

Obviously it would be just like the EFL and PL to bend the rules to suit certain clubs and not bother enforcing it properly.

 

[FellTop]

Excellent question and thread.

I think for a club like us the sustainable approach is the right one. I think as a community we understand the need for being able to afford what you buy, if that makes sense. We are built that way.

There are several sides to the sustainable model too. First is the infrastructure. Ground, training ground, academy. These are real differentiators in the modern game. Players want elite environments to work in. Think Field of Dreams - If you build it, they will come. We are seeing that now I believe. Jobe, Browne, Isidor, Mepham are all likely examples of players who took account of the environment before deciding we were right for them.

Another element of being sustainable is the academy setup. In my opinion this is the most fundamentally important part of our club. We absolutely must take advantage of the regional talent we have. Long has the North East been considered a footballing hotbed. I honestly believe it still is. Get our academy right and we have a massive advantage. Brentford do not have that, Bournemouth and Brighton arguably less so too. If we are to return to being a top half prem side it will be off the back of academy success imo. The biggest cause for excitement currently for me is the academy lads in the first team. Patto, Neil, Rigg, Watson. Just brilliant. I openly admit I will give these lads more time and patience than those we buy in. The reason is we need to show how that pathway works. I have no doubt that seeing Neil get so much game time at a young age helped convince Rigg this was the right place for him. I also bet Rigg is talking to the next youngun about this being the right place. It is a virtuous circle when you get it right, and we are doing so. Long live the home grown lads being the core of the side for me.

Another aspect is coaching. You have to have a philosophy these days. A clear stlye throughout the club. We may not yet have nailed this, but I am always encouraged to hear Speakman talk about it. Murty is a massive cog in our wheel in my opinion. Quite a coup he is here tbh. Regis seems a good fit so far, and his trust in youth looks great. It would have been easy to take Watson out of the 11 against Sheff Utd but no chance as he seems to value the learning by experience element for young players. We must keep trusting the youngsters to learn. Watson could easily travel to the prem with us and be a key players if we let him hone his game now. Might be a £25m player when we get there too. Coaches have to be allowed to play a long game at times.

Lastly, before I send myself to sleep, is that selling is as important as buying. Brighton are the best at this. They sell a player only when it is right for them, and when they do they have the next lad to slot in seamlessly. They are masters at it. They sell their seeming best players, but then go on to be better. The lads like Speakman and Harvey are the ones resposnible for that side of the game. It is a level of capability way beyond my understanding to be honest. It requires so many folk aligned on the one thing, who will step in when such and such goes? The same for the coach, who will be the next coach if we lose this one. It is a tough gig for Speakman, but he seems to me to be a pretty good fit for us right now.

So bottom line, lets get to the prem, and compete, but with the local lads leading the charge and money from sales to bring in genuine talent that see what our area and club mean. Then we will be successful.

Or Kyril can sell to a Musk and we buy a team of Galacticos to conquer Europe. But only if Dan Neil can still be captain

 

[King Kareoke]

I have enjoyed the general improvement but naturally worry if we do sell our star assets how this will impact

I also fully understand the frustration when we underperform. I think the most disappointing result was clearly Coventry. Friday was disappointing but a 1 0 defeat away at Sheff Utd is not horrific but the missed opportunities even in that game were still annoying.

 

[Pure River Slut]

Brains not wonga

 

[Jme2]

We’ve only ever tried to buy success in my time , and bar a few short years have failed on every cycle of re invention . We have never had any real money to compete except Shorts era and then still blew the lot .. Slow steady establishment of behind the scenes knowledgable people , followed by building up the academy. The only game in town as far as i am concerned ,is what we are doing now, which can be frustrating and annoying as a fan at times . I’ll take that now if we end up like Brighton …

 

[Smug in Boots]

Excellent question and thread.

I think for a club like us the sustainable approach is the right one. I think as a community we understand the need for being able to afford what you buy, if that makes sense. We are built that way.

There are several sides to the sustainable model too. First is the infrastructure. Ground, training ground, academy. These are real differentiators in the modern game. Players want elite environments to work in. Think Field of Dreams - If you build it, they will come. We are seeing that now I believe. Jobe, Browne, Isidor, Mepham are all likely examples of players who took account of the environment before deciding we were right for them.

Another element of being sustainable is the academy setup. In my opinion this is the most fundamentally important part of our club. We absolutely must take advantage of the regional talent we have. Long has the North East been considered a footballing hotbed. I honestly believe it still is. Get our academy right and we have a massive advantage. Brentford do not have that, Bournemouth and Brighton arguably less so too. If we are to return to being a top half prem side it will be off the back of academy success imo. The biggest cause for excitement currently for me is the academy lads in the first team. Patto, Neil, Rigg, Watson. Just brilliant. I openly admit I will give these lads more time and patience than those we buy in. The reason is we need to show how that pathway works. I have no doubt that seeing Neil get so much game time at a young age helped convince Rigg this was the right place for him. I also bet Rigg is talking to the next youngun about this being the right place. It is a virtuous circle when you get it right, and we are doing so. Long live the home grown lads being the core of the side for me.

Another aspect is coaching. You have to have a philosophy these days. A clear stlye throughout the club. We may not yet have nailed this, but I am always encouraged to hear Speakman talk about it. Murty is a massive cog in our wheel in my opinion. Quite a coup he is here tbh. Regis seems a good fit so far, and his trust in youth looks great. It would have been easy to take Watson out of the 11 against Sheff Utd but no chance as he seems to value the learning by experience element for young players. We must keep trusting the youngsters to learn. Watson could easily travel to the prem with us and be a key players if we let him hone his game now. Might be a £25m player when we get there too. Coaches have to be allowed to play a long game at times.

Lastly, before I send myself to sleep, is that selling is as important as buying. Brighton are the best at this. They sell a player only when it is right for them, and when they do they have the next lad to slot in seamlessly. They are masters at it. They sell their seeming best players, but then go on to be better. The lads like Speakman and Harvey are the ones resposnible for that side of the game. It is a level of capability way beyond my understanding to be honest. It requires so many folk aligned on the one thing, who will step in when such and such goes? The same for the coach, who will be the next coach if we lose this one. It is a tough gig for Speakman, but he seems to me to be a pretty good fit for us right now.

So bottom line, lets get to the prem, and compete, but with the local lads leading the charge and money from sales to bring in genuine talent that see what our area and club mean. Then we will be successful.

Or Kyril can sell to a Musk and we buy a team of Galacticos to conquer Europe. But only if Dan Neil can still be captain

I totally understand the frustration of people but, in reality, I think the majority of people have accept reality and realise there's little point bringing in safe Championship players who'll muscle their way to the PL. Luton and Sheff Utd looked so bereft in the next league up, their 'style of football' will never succeed and it's humiliating. It's all very well paying off debts and improving/replacing your crumbling stadium but not funny being a laughing stock.

 

[Jme2]

I totally understand the frustration of people but, in reality, I think the majority of people have accept reality and realise there's little point bringing in safe Championship players who'll muscle their way to the PL. Luton and Sheff Utd looked so bereft in the next league up, their 'style of football' will never succeed and it's humiliating. It's all very well paying off debts and improving/replacing your crumbling stadium but not funny being a laughing stock.

We have had so many season like Luton /Sheff utd and its just painful to go to the match .. At one time i think we were hated by most because every game was like the WBA game recently where we cling on to 0-0 .. never want to watch that again

 

[Chunksafc]

It also bodes the question about playing style, would people accept watching us play every week if we played direct football like a Luton and got promoted?

Personally I prefer that we try and play football on the deck but have a really disciplined defence shape

 

[Smug in Boots]

It also bodes the question about playing style, would people accept watching us play every week if we played direct football like a Luton and got promoted?

Personally I prefer that we try and play football on the deck but have a really disciplined defence shape

I've witnessed some horrendous football this season yet the commentators seem full of praise ...

... Luton, Sheff Utd, Millwall, Preston, etc were awful in my opinion.

It's all set pieces, muscle and long diagonals over the full backs ... rotten and totally predictable.

 

[Essayyeffcee]

Surely the slow burn and using the academy to bring players into the first team is working - up to a point. Yes we need to bring players from other teams into the fold also but they should be buying into what the club is doing as a whole and they seem to be doing that. I think this season is a big test for the club whether we go up or not. If we do get promoted, how to we try to stay up? Do we bring the same ilk of players as we have done - young and hungry or do we go for players with that bit more experience of playing in the prem? Maybe we can mix the two - young and hungry players who can't get a game in their teams but that could be costly. I'll leave all those decisions to the ones who are more qualified than me but at the minute, I'll enjoy the football we're playing - even though I get annoyed at times with the results