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SpursDisciple said:
I've seen this debated. Is suggesting Kane avoids a booking cause he is white (apart from being ludicrous) actually racist? It is accusing the ref of being racist I suppose, certainly of being skin colour conscious, but I'm not sure the guy is being racist. If being a thick twat meant you shouldn't be online, social media would be very quiet. Interested to hear different views.
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SD it should not be difficult to see this but you express a common view. I have fought against racism all my life and overwhelmingly it is the black races that have had to take most of it, therefore the current trend seems to be that we concentrate on calling out such racism. I understand the position but I think it misses a fundamental point. The problem is uneducated people behaving like base human animals and reacting to 'different is dangerous' Throughout the animal kingdom (of which we are part) difference is attacked. Black birds attacking white birds, white birds attacking black birds and so on throughout the species including humans.
As soon as you bring in education we quickly find out that differences between people have nothing to do with their race. Put simply there is good and bad throughout humanity, race is simply irrelevant to finding out which camp any particular human falls into.
We do not solve racism by allowing the black race to overcompensate for the wrongs done to them by being racist themselves. Creating societies for black lawyers for example, is simply racist, as justified as it might be in a society where black people are suppressed. We have to work for a society where your race is of no consequence. Blonde people used to beat up Red heads and vice versa. Being a Spurs supporter and hating Arsenal is where these kind of feelings should live in our world and NO where else.
I can remember when Chelsea fans in The Shed were a nasty bunch of racists, then their team started to include black players and slowly it shut them up and they were 'educated'
Although white myself I grew up in a 'Jazz' family, my heroes were (and are) the great American Jazz musicians, 90% of whom are black. I learnt from a young age what these artistic giants had to put up with in their private lives in racist America. Incidentally nearly all the 10% of great white jazz musicians are Jewish, there was never any racism among the players themselves. I grew up in racist London so things have improved hugely but it has not gone away, and will not until we all see the person regardless of their appearance.

If you say Kane was let off because his shirt was white, OK? if it's because his face is white that is racist and to say that somehow that's ok because he is not black is racist. Think about it!
 
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Spurf said:
SD it should not be difficult to see this but you express a common view. I have fought against racism all my life and overwhelmingly it is the black races that have had to take most of it, therefore the current trend seems to be that we concentrate on calling out such racism. I understand the position but I think it misses a fundamental point. The problem is uneducated people behaving like base human animals and reacting to 'different is dangerous' Throughout the animal kingdom (of which we are part) difference is attacked. Black birds attacking white birds, white birds attacking black birds and so on throughout the species including humans.
As soon as you bring in education we quickly find out that differences between people have nothing to do with their race. Put simply there is good and bad throughout humanity race is simply irrelevant to finding out which camp any particular human falls into.
We do not solve racism by allowing the black race to overcompensate for the wrongs done to them by being racist themselves. Creating societies for black lawyers for example, is simply racist, as justified as it might be in a society where black people are suppressed. We have to work for a society where your race is of no consequence. Blonde people used to beat up Red heads and vice versa. Being a Spurs supporter and hating Arsenal is where these kind of feelings should live in our world and NO where else.
I can remember when Chelsea fans in The Shed were a nasty bunch of racists, then there team started to include black players and slowly it shut them up and they were 'educated'
Although white myself I grew up in a 'Jazz' family, my heroes were (and are) the great American Jazz musicians 90% of whom are black. I learnt from a young age what these artistic giants had to put up with in their private lives in racist America. Incidentally nearly all the 10% of great white jazz musicians are Jewish, there was never any racism among the players themselves. I grew up in racist London so things have improved hugely but it has not gone away, and will not until we all see the person regardless of their appearance.

If you say Kane was let off because his shirt was white, OK? if it's because his face is white that is racist and to say that somehow that's ok because he is not black is racist. Think about it!
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Thank you, very good points.
 
Spurf said:
SD it should not be difficult to see this but you express a common view. I have fought against racism all my life and overwhelmingly it is the black races that have had to take most of it, therefore the current trend seems to be that we concentrate on calling out such racism. I understand the position but I think it misses a fundamental point. The problem is uneducated people behaving like base human animals and reacting to 'different is dangerous' Throughout the animal kingdom (of which we are part) difference is attacked. Black birds attacking white birds, white birds attacking black birds and so on throughout the species including humans.
As soon as you bring in education we quickly find out that differences between people have nothing to do with their race. Put simply there is good and bad throughout humanity, race is simply irrelevant to finding out which camp any particular human falls into.
We do not solve racism by allowing the black race to overcompensate for the wrongs done to them by being racist themselves. Creating societies for black lawyers for example, is simply racist, as justified as it might be in a society where black people are suppressed. We have to work for a society where your race is of no consequence. Blonde people used to beat up Red heads and vice versa. Being a Spurs supporter and hating Arsenal is where these kind of feelings should live in our world and NO where else.
I can remember when Chelsea fans in The Shed were a nasty bunch of racists, then their team started to include black players and slowly it shut them up and they were 'educated'
Although white myself I grew up in a 'Jazz' family, my heroes were (and are) the great American Jazz musicians, 90% of whom are black. I learnt from a young age what these artistic giants had to put up with in their private lives in racist America. Incidentally nearly all the 10% of great white jazz musicians are Jewish, there was never any racism among the players themselves. I grew up in racist London so things have improved hugely but it has not gone away, and will not until we all see the person regardless of their appearance.

If you say Kane was let off because his shirt was white, OK? if it's because his face is white that is racist and to say that somehow that's ok because he is not black is racist. Think about it!
Click to expand...

totally agree with this. Black people can be racist as well as white or chinese or anyone else.

In recent times though i've heard racism being re-defined whereby black people cannot be racist to white people for example because it requires the race to be oppressed in the past. I don't know when this revision happened and i personally disagree with this.
 
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Spurf said:
SD it should not be difficult to see this but you express a common view. I have fought against racism all my life and overwhelmingly it is the black races that have had to take most of it, therefore the current trend seems to be that we concentrate on calling out such racism. I understand the position but I think it misses a fundamental point. The problem is uneducated people behaving like base human animals and reacting to 'different is dangerous' Throughout the animal kingdom (of which we are part) difference is attacked. Black birds attacking white birds, white birds attacking black birds and so on throughout the species including humans.
As soon as you bring in education we quickly find out that differences between people have nothing to do with their race. Put simply there is good and bad throughout humanity, race is simply irrelevant to finding out which camp any particular human falls into.
We do not solve racism by allowing the black race to overcompensate for the wrongs done to them by being racist themselves. Creating societies for black lawyers for example, is simply racist, as justified as it might be in a society where black people are suppressed. We have to work for a society where your race is of no consequence. Blonde people used to beat up Red heads and vice versa. Being a Spurs supporter and hating Arsenal is where these kind of feelings should live in our world and NO where else.
I can remember when Chelsea fans in The Shed were a nasty bunch of racists, then their team started to include black players and slowly it shut them up and they were 'educated'
Although white myself I grew up in a 'Jazz' family, my heroes were (and are) the great American Jazz musicians, 90% of whom are black. I learnt from a young age what these artistic giants had to put up with in their private lives in racist America. Incidentally nearly all the 10% of great white jazz musicians are Jewish, there was never any racism among the players themselves. I grew up in racist London so things have improved hugely but it has not gone away, and will not until we all see the person regardless of their appearance.

If you say Kane was let off because his shirt was white, OK? if it's because his face is white that is racist and to say that somehow that's ok because he is not black is racist. Think about it!
Click to expand...
OK, had a minute or two to think about this. I disagree with very little - our issue is around the last paragraph. Firstly I do not by any shade of opinion think it is ok if the colour of Kane's skin should influence in any way how he is treated in anything football, or in life etc. The matter I was commenting on was whether "Troopz" from AFTV is racist to suggest that the colour of Kane's skin had a bearing on the ref's treatment of him. The correct answer is no it didn't, but is Troopz racist to say it is? No, I would suggest he is (wrongly) making an accusation of racism, he is not being racist - although he may be in an underlying way.

I would also question whether positive discrimination is not a legitimate tactic in cases where no progress is being made through education and encouragement. Women only shortlists for prospective Labour candidates is a legitimate tactic that has been successful and I would support BAME only shortlists, because these things can take generations to change when left to evolve. We are of one mind though in hoping MLKs words come true that we are judged by the content of our character rather than the colour of our skin.
 
BobbyD said:
totally agree with this. Black people can be racist as well as white or chinese or anyone else.

In recent times though i've heard racism being re-defined whereby black people cannot be racist to white people for example because it requires the race to be oppressed in the past. I don't know when this revision happened and i personally disagree with this.
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I agree with it too, Spurf (as ever) expresses himself very well and makes excellent points. I'm just not sure anyone has suggested that Black on White racism is impossible. I agree with Spurf that skin colour should be irrelevant, as irrelevant as hair colour, eye colour etc.
 
Luther Kings speech is well worth a read as so much is relevant still today. This bit struck me, given the conversation above

But there is something that I must say to my people who stand on the warm threshold which leads into the palace of justice. In the process of gaining our rightful place we must not be guilty of wrongful deeds. Let us not seek to satisfy our thirst for freedom by drinking from the cup of bitterness and hatred. We must forever conduct our struggle on the high plane of dignity and discipline. We must not allow our creative protest to degenerate into physical violence. Again and again we must rise to the majestic heights of meeting physical force with soul force.

The marvelous new militancy which has engulfed the Negro community must not lead us to a distrust of all white people, for many of our white brothers, as evidenced by their presence here today, have come to realize that their destiny is tied up with our destiny. And they have come to realize that their freedom is inextricably bound to our freedom. We cannot walk alone.
 
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BobbyD said:
totally agree with this. Black people can be racist as well as white or chinese or anyone else.

In recent times though i've heard racism being re-defined whereby black people cannot be racist to white people for example because it requires the race to be oppressed in the past. I don't know when this revision happened and i personally disagree with this.
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It's from some sociologists in the 70s, who basically extended institutional racism to apply to white people in general.
They insist that racism = prejudice + power, because... erm, reasons.
 
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PleaseNotPoll said:
It's from some sociologists in the 70s, who basically extended institutional racism to apply to white people in general.
They insist that racism = prejudice + power, because... erm, reasons.
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The biggest issue is those who tend to claim racism against the whites are talking out of the wrong end of their digestive tract, for example the current one doing the rounds saying that "Karen" is racist against white women

Errm...I've used the term a few times, and I think you'll find it's pretty ****ing difficult for me to be racist against white people
 
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I know that hits his arm, but he raises it because of the bicycle kick flying at his face. Debatable.
 
KingHotspur said:
On the plus side, least they can’t break any records this season and their glory will be short lived I think. They’ve peaked and won’t be winning the league again anytime soon.
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Even if true at least when we were at our peak we managed to actually win unlike yourselves who went all Spursy at the sight of possible success .
 
PleaseNotPoll said:
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I know that hits his arm, but he raises it because of the bicycle kick flying at his face. Debatable.
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It's just as easy to interpret it as the kick which is dangerous, which supersedes the handball. I know I keep on saying it but these bicycle kicks would probably be illegal in other areas of the pitch for a high boot, yet are lauded as brilliant goals when they come off. As far as I know there are not separate rules for what constitutes dangerous play when you are in the penalty area.
 
vimhawk said:
It's just as easy to interpret it as the kick which is dangerous, which supersedes the handball. I know I keep on saying it but these bicycle kicks would probably be illegal in other areas of the pitch for a high boot, yet are lauded as brilliant goals when they come off. As far as I know there are not separate rules for what constitutes dangerous play when you are in the penalty area.
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Surely they are legal if you have the space to do it safely. In this example, I don't see what else the defender is going to do and is just protecting himself. Definite foul for dangerous play and no penalty.
 
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