Riot thread

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Good post Art.... and this is where I consider PC has gone 'mad'. No doubt if we 'made' them do something, they would cry to the courts saying we are abusing their human rights to be able to do nothing, while sitting at home claiming benefits! Children need discipline, to know right from wrong, and if the parents can't do it, then maybe something like conscription is the answer!

Parents can't punish their kids, teachers can't punish their pupils, a person cannot protect their own home and police can't seem to use force arresting someone, without someone screaming about their human rights. For me, once you decide to break the law, you no longer have rights. You have willingly ignored other people's rights to live their lives (in one way or another), you have crossed that boundary between right and wrong, and should be punished for it!

Yes, you can say it is the government's fault... but because they have become too soft. The criminal seems to have more rights than their victims, and the criminals know that if they ever get to court, it will be a light sentance and that they can always sue someone because they maybe got arrested with a little too much force!
 
babyhornetdan said:
Thats an interesting choice lol. I think i wil either go in from a special, or just go straight in with my degree and work my way up as best i can. Thanks for the advice.
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BHD - You may find entry very difficult at the moment. My niece tried for a couple of years after getting her degree and never got an offer - finally she has been accepted by the Police force that guards Nuculeur establishments and is in the middle of training, including firearms training. She spent a couple of years working as an admin in Dover police station to get some experience as well.
 
SalisburyKev said:
Good post Art.... and this is where I consider PC has gone 'mad'. No doubt if we 'made' them do something, they would cry to the courts saying we are abusing their human rights to be able to do nothing, while sitting at home claiming benefits! Children need discipline, to know right from wrong, and if the parents can't do it, then maybe something like conscription is the answer!

Parents can't punish their kids, teachers can't punish their pupils, a person cannot protect their own home and police can't seem to use force arresting someone, without someone screaming about their human rights. For me, once you decide to break the law, you no longer have rights. You have willingly ignored other people's rights to live their lives (in one way or another), you have crossed that boundary between right and wrong, and should be punished for it!

Yes, you can say it is the government's fault... but because they have become too soft. The criminal seems to have more rights than their victims, and the criminals know that if they ever get to court, it will be a light sentance and that they can always sue someone because they maybe got arrested with a little too much force!
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Trouble is that trying to decide "fault" is both hard and unhelpful. Our society worked better when it was simple and women stayed home to correctly bring up their kids. That is no longer acceptable - we have moved on and rightly no longer treat women as second class citizens. However it has a price as we have simply given up the old parenting role and not replaced it. For lots of youngsters it has not harmed them but for some the absence of that good home influence has left them in sort of "limbo" Add to that the increase in divorce and so called "one parent families" and kids have less access to good advice than they used to. Add to that the PC part which prevents teachers and policemen - even other adults from correcting or disciplining kids and it is no surprise you have a mess

Somehow we have to go back and find a road where we accept that it is not fair to expect kids to bring themselves up - some will do so successfully but clearly not all - and you cannot lay the blame at those kids doors - even if they turn into the hooligan element. In Europe there is much more focus on the family and extended family and maybe therein lies some clues to solutionns
 
Unfortunately we have become a 'blame' society, with a "It's not my fault" mentality. School teachers see more of the kids than their own parents, but they have lost almost all disciplinary powers. I know teachers live in fear of saying the wrong thing to a child so they don't react angrily. They feel threatened and can do very little about it. They will tell the parents but they try to avoid all responsibility... and say they are out of control at home as well, and cannot punish them themselves. It allows children to keep pushing the boundaries further and further, and it almost comes endless, resulting in what we have seen!

There is no 'easy' solution, bar being back more powers to teachers and parents to deal with them. Parents need a lot more help, as do teachers, but the children also need to know that they have a future. That they aren't just a burden to society. If they feel loved, wanted and needed, then you'd like to think that they will will return the sentiments!
 
SalisburyKev said:
No doubt if we 'made' them do something, they would cry to the courts saying we are abusing their human rights to be able to do nothing, while sitting at home claiming benefits! Children need discipline, to know right from wrong, and if the parents can't do it, then maybe something like conscription is the answer!
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Let them cry to the courts all they like - National Service is exactly what happens in other countries without court involvement. Although it's not 100% effective for all - nothing can be that successful - it certainly shouldn't be discounted IMO.
 
Some good posts here - totally agree with them. I also think we have to be sure we know what we mean by Human Rights and then allocate those rights fairly so that victims rights are balanced against others.

I would like to think that we could also move towards the ability to give back more power to teachers but the fear of being accused of being a pervert if you lay a hand on a child must be an awful impediment to a teacher trying to impose some discipline - I do not know how they cope with it.

Again Europe where the lead comes from in the PC - "dont smack the child" don't have the same degree of problem as their family system differs
 
Bolton's Boots said:
Let them cry to the courts all they like - National Service is exactly what happens in other countries without court involvement. Although it's not 100% effective for all - nothing can be that successful - it certainly shouldn't be discounted IMO.
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Bolton - like others I think - I am coming round to this view and never thought I would - it does not go against human rights law as other European Countries under the same law have Conscritoion
 
Bolton's Boots said:
Let them cry to the courts all they like - National Service is exactly what happens in other countries without court involvement. Although it's not 100% effective for all - nothing can be that successful - it certainly shouldn't be discounted IMO.
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I completely agree... Unfortunately I can't see it happening! They'll just take it to the courts and will take forever to go through with adjournments, appeals and what-not. Far too much beauracracy these days
 
SalisburyKev said:
I completely agree... Unfortunately I can't see it happening! They'll just take it to the courts and will take forever to go through with adjournments, appeals and what-not. Far too much beauracracy these days
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Absolutely Kev - so one other thing that is needed is to create some changes in the legal system that can speed up justice in some cases - sounds easy but it is one for the lawyers - so start in 2020 perhaps :)
 
Thinking more and thinking, posted above "women no longer treated as second class citizens" the family should be a unit with complementary roles fulfilled by the members. The role of mother is one of the most important things a person can do and a very challenging task. If our society allowed for a single breadwinner to support the family leaving the second adult free to do the nesting duties I believe we'd solve a lot of the problem. I remember the term latchkey kids and seem to recall that the latchkeys did in general underachieve and ovedr misbehave. I'd like to see family units where the adults have distinct roles rather than this mix we have now and the kids were not seen as parents friends but offspring in need of nurturing. If you don't give them that nurturing what can you expect?
 
I agree with you aberdeen and suggested early on that this could be a problem area. The only trouble however is that women are expected to work these days to fuel the economy. Family life suffers as the result of it.
 
So how would you turn the clock back Frenchie ,yet keep things workable for todays monetary requirements ! If Dad doesnt earn enough , surley mum has to at least take a part time job! Kind of caught between a rock and a hard place!
 
I dont think women are actually treated that differently, having actually had this discussion with men and women at uni before, we came to the conclusion that some genuinely like the under dog status and pleading inequality, others however work the butts off to get where they are and go a fantastic job. There are posts open to women and they can get the qualifications, but for some reason they dont. Look at Karen Brady, she has run Birmingham FC and is running West Ham FC, and is very successful at everything she does! There are plenty of women out there who are successful, but for some reason others dont take the steps to become successful.
 
Hi all - confession time:) HornArt is really Leonardo in drag

For personal reasons I was trying to stay away from the site as Leo but could not sit back and watch the discussion which took place in the Nest the other day so chose to remove it to here. As Leo I think it was the right decision and is what I would have done when I was a Moderator. On here only those who want to read about politics get involved - in the Nest it was being forced down everyone's throats.

So for those who have accused HornArt of getting too uppity in his first week or two of bieng on the site you will now see it was not a novice opinion but had some experience behind it.
Cover blown Art disappears with a whooosh

<wizard><wizard><wizard><sorry>
 
... and become Leo once more :)

Apologies for the subterfuge - but I can tell you what an experience it is when people address you not knowing who you are - I now realise people are too polite to Leo - they don't mean it :) OFH and others - give it a go - you will be amazed at the difference when people do not see you mask :)

Oh and congratulations to the Private Detective Norway for investigating my persona and blowing my cover :)
 
babyhornetdan said:
I dont think women are actually treated that differently, having actually had this discussion with men and women at uni before, we came to the conclusion that some genuinely like the under dog status and pleading inequality, others however work the butts off to get where they are and go a fantastic job. There are posts open to women and they can get the qualifications, but for some reason they dont. Look at Karen Brady, she has run Birmingham FC and is running West Ham FC, and is very successful at everything she does! There are plenty of women out there who are successful, but for some reason others dont take the steps to become successful.
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Dan - it is more about the role that women had in society until a generation ago - house husbands were very rare and most women did not return to work till their kids were "of an age" That has changed - and there is no right or wrong about it - however it does affect how kids are brought up
 
Norwayhornet said:
So how would you turn the clock back Frenchie ,yet keep things workable for todays monetary requirements ! If Dad doesnt earn enough , surley mum has to at least take a part time job! Kind of caught between a rock and a hard place!
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We cannot turn the clock back, men and women both have expectations to have a career and want to fulfill themselves at work (well those that want to work anyway). How many of us have daughters that have really good jobs or are working towards getting one? - would you want them to stop working? I believe that there is a balance that can be made between working and raising children in a way that they become valued members of society.
Just look at some of these rioting scumbags, they come from families that have not worked for generations - how does that fit with the "stay at home mother" model?
 
Leonardo said:
... and become Leo once more :)

Apologies for the subterfuge - but I can tell you what an experience it is when people address you not knowing who you are - I now realise people are too polite to Leo - they don't mean it :) OFH and others - give it a go - you will be amazed at the difference when people do not see you mask :)

Oh and congratulations to the Private Detective Norway for investigating my persona and blowing my cover :)
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wasnt me sport ! But Detective Dan gave me the lead ,I only checked the info and got my facts straight;)
I would however like to add the extra time spent on here over the last couple of days when I would have far preferred to watch the cricket!
So OFH if it isnt a problem to you please dont create multiple personas as shown by the last few days it is hard enough as it is to deal with powerful and emotive topics!
Ak and Brag was funny , This to be frank has been very tedious and time consuming!
I have to check , but I think having multiple characters is if not against site rules , is frowned upon !
 
babyhornetdan said:
I have to agree, now women are working happily and men are staying at home with the kids.
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Wish that happened more Dan - but in fact often nobody stays at home with the kids.

W-Y - only a generation ago most kids had at least one parent there for pre-school years at least - and society was not so PC to prevent a little discipline - that is what has gone and we have to find a "new way"
 
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