Riot thread

[Golden Gordon]

I think there may be some kudos in a labelled jacket for minds as warped as these. Mankinis are the only answer - not pretty, but I'm sure they wouldn't offend again.

At last, some sense! Been away from the forum pretty well since the trouble started, so just sat down to try to digest a lot of soul searching posts.
Have to say now I've got to the end that SLB's recent post came as a great relief.

Our local rag had an interesting headline: "0.02%"
This represents the percentage of the 250,000 or so population of Milton Keynes who were involved in this criminal activity- i.e about 50 people (they tried to get into IKEA, or something.)

Of course, for those caught up in any of the troubles it has been a terrifying, angering and frustrating business . The rest of us look on and take up our positions as to why it happens and what should be done. Won't comment on that- most of what can be said has already been said in this thread.

But consider: if that percentage reflects a national figure, then 99.98% of us were not engaged in these crimes. 0.02% of 60 million people gives 12,000 miscreants. An average Vicarage Road crowd. Factor in all the places that had no trouble it would seem likely that the figure is much lower.

It is a highly unpleasant thought that even this few people can behave so despicably, and have such a disproportionately massive effect on the life of the country, but let's cheer ourselves up with the thought that a huge, huge majority of us don't, and stand against such behaviour.

I confess to not reading the whole thread attentively. Has anyone been caught up with any of this first hand?

Lastly, I am not trying to make light of the wrong doing, but trying to put it in perspective.

 

[colognehornet]

probably comes as a surprise but I actually agree with some of the above comments but why not extend the orange jackets to cover other levels of crime such as those of bankers and speculators and a whole miriad of crime which goes under the name of business fraud - which is ,sadly ,often ignored but which,though less direct, has a more negative influence upon this country ? Why should such punishments be restricted to those at the bottom of the social scale?

 

[HaslemereKev]

Totally agree CH.

I think the best way to punish someone, especially when it is unlikely any kind of prison term will help, is to get them to pay back (one way or another) to the people they have caused most harm to! Give them a sense of responsibility and culpability for their actons, while showing them what damaged they have actually caused to the people most affected!

 

[HaslemereKev]

But consider: if that percentage reflects a national figure, then 99.98% of us were not engaged in these crimes. 0.02% of 60 million people gives 12,000 miscreants. An average Vicarage Road crowd. Factor in all the places that had no trouble it would seem likely that the figure is much lower.

Just over the kennels capacity.... maybe we can force all the miscreants to watch them up the road all season as punishment!

 

[Leo]

At last, some sense! Been away from the forum pretty well since the trouble started, so just sat down to try to digest a lot of soul searching posts.
Have to say now I've got to the end that SLB's recent post came as a great relief.

Our local rag had an interesting headline: "0.02%"
This represents the percentage of the 250,000 or so population of Milton Keynes who were involved in this criminal activity- i.e about 50 people (they tried to get into IKEA, or something.)

Of course, for those caught up in any of the troubles it has been a terrifying, angering and frustrating business . The rest of us look on and take up our positions as to why it happens and what should be done. Won't comment on that- most of what can be said has already been said in this thread.

But consider: if that percentage reflects a national figure, then 99.98% of us were not engaged in these crimes. 0.02% of 60 million people gives 12,000 miscreants. An average Vicarage Road crowd. Factor in all the places that had no trouble it would seem likely that the figure is much lower.

It is a highly unpleasant thought that even this few people can behave so despicably, and have such a disproportionately massive effect on the life of the country, but let's cheer ourselves up with the thought that a huge, huge majority of us don't, and stand against such behaviour.

I confess to not reading the whole thread attentively. Has anyone been caught up with any of this first hand?

Lastly, I am not trying to make light of the wrong doing, but trying to put it in perspective.

Trouble is though GG as Lord Acton said there are lies damned lies and statistics - your 12,000 have cost several lives and millions of pounds worth of damage to property and untold damage t our reputation abroad - which brings in tourism

 

[babyhornetdan]

I think there is/was actually a scheme like this in the Cambridge area. They would get a group of the offenders together and they would have them painting something, or washing off graffiti. Its a great idea as it allows people to see justice being dished out and it might just name and shame them onto the straight and narrow.

 

[Golden Gordon]

Trouble is though GG as Lord Acton said there are lies damned lies and statistics - your 12,000 have cost several lives and millions of pounds worth of damage to property and untold damage t our reputation abroad - which brings in tourism

Yes, absolutely agree. As I wrote 'that this few people can behave so despicably, and have such a disproportionately massive effect on the life of the country'.
Also I concede there's nothing scientific about MK Citizen's '0'02%' figure either. I was just making the point that the huge majority of the population is law abiding.

Oh, and they're certainly not 'my' 12,000, Leo. God forbid!

 

[Golden Gordon]

I think there is/was actually a scheme like this in the Cambridge area. They would get a group of the offenders together and they would have them painting something, or washing off graffiti. Its a great idea as it allows people to see justice being dished out and it might just name and shame them onto the straight and narrow.

Haven't there also been schemes to confront perpetrators with their victims face to face, to try and stir some human fellow feeling and thus some remorse? Could be useful, on top of whatever punishment is dished out.

 

[colognehornet]

In order to expand on my previous post a little. If a person burns out someone elses car during a riot they, quite rightly, have the book thrown at them. If he,on the other hand, speculates on the economic downturn of a whole country, or works for a rating agency which downgrades a country causing many thousands of people to not only lose their cars but possibly houses and jobs as well, then nothing is done about this. As long as the biggest fish remain unpunished in our society then the law will have a problem of legitimacy because it is not seen as impartial, a necessary condition before it can be uniformly respected.

 

[Leo]

In order to expand on my previous post a little. If a person burns out someone elses car during a riot they, quite rightly, have the book thrown at them. If he,on the other hand, speculates on the economic downturn of a whole country, or works for a rating agency which downgrades a country causing many thousands of people to not only lose their cars but possibly houses and jobs as well, then nothing is done about this. As long as the biggest fish remain unpunished in our society then the law will have a problem of legitimacy because it is not seen as impartial, a necessary condition before it can be uniformly respected.

Hmmm - I think you are widening the subject just a little too much there Cologne. We can all agree on looting and arson as criminal action but where does one part of banking or financial regulation cease to be helpful and become harmful - for me that is a whole other subject

 

[colognehornet]

Hello Leonardo. I'm not sure if I am widening the subject too much, but rather alluding to the fact that many corners of English society see there as being one law for the rich and one for the poor, whether that is the case or not. I think most of my posts here are centred around the idea of avoiding knee jerk reactions to this problem. I get the idea that if the opinions expressed here are reflective of national opinion in England then a referendum tomorrow would lead us to hard labour camps on Dartmoor, public humiliation, conscription, a return to corporal punishment in Schools and, if David Cameron is to be believed, a possible appearance of the Army on English streets for the first time since the Liverpool Police strike of the 1930s. I've also read something here about Britains image abroad - do people not realize that these measures would damage Britain's image more than any riots could possibly do?

 

[oldfrenchhorn]

I think that you might have chosen the wrong examples cologne by picking on the credit rating agencies or the people playing the stock exchange. If you had used Robert Maxwell or Nick Leeson as comparison with the arsonist, then they committed illegal acts. The agencies are there to say if a country is likely to be able to repay it's debts and the speculator may well be your pension fund provider.

Reading my French newspaper today, the question was asked why water cannon and the army were not used. Far too softly softly for that report.

 

[NZHorn]

As I undrstand it water cannon is only of use if rioters are aiming at a single target If the rioters are mobile a water cannon is too slow to keep up with the changing nodes of action. Troops patrolling with instructions to shoot on sight would be effective but probably unacceptable.

 

[Leo]

Hello Leonardo. I'm not sure if I am widening the subject too much, but rather alluding to the fact that many corners of English society see there as being one law for the rich and one for the poor, whether that is the case or not. I think most of my posts here are centred around the idea of avoiding knee jerk reactions to this problem. I get the idea that if the opinions expressed here are reflective of national opinion in England then a referendum tomorrow would lead us to hard labour camps on Dartmoor, public humiliation, conscription, a return to corporal punishment in Schools and, if David Cameron is to be believed, a possible appearance of the Army on English streets for the first time since the Liverpool Police strike of the 1930s. I've also read something here about Britains image abroad - do people not realize that these measures would damage Britain's image more than any riots could possibly do?

Yes - I do take your point Cologne - both at the slightly hypocritical way crimes by the rich are not viewed in the same light as those by the poor (although I think most of us do hate some of the actions of miscreant bankers).. You are totally correct that now is not the time really to decide on effective new punishments - another saying goes something like pass laws in haste repent at leisure. That is why a debate like this is good as we seem to "feel" our way forwards rather than pure knee jerk

 

[Norwayhornet]

In order to expand on my previous post a little. If a person burns out someone elses car during a riot they, quite rightly, have the book thrown at them. If he,on the other hand, speculates on the economic downturn of a whole country, or works for a rating agency which downgrades a country causing many thousands of people to not only lose their cars but possibly houses and jobs as well, then nothing is done about this. As long as the biggest fish remain unpunished in our society then the law will have a problem of legitimacy because it is not seen as impartial, a necessary condition before it can be uniformly respected.

Totally agree with you Cologne If you bring justice to the violent little fish ,then you have to bring justice to the big fish (who directly or indirectly has caused a lot more damage)! How can the populace have faith and respect in a legal system that lets the fatcats (big fish) off! purely because they can afford better legal eagles

 

[Sir_Luther_Blissett]

Haven't there also been schemes to confront perpetrators with their victims face to face, to try and stir some human fellow feeling and thus some remorse? Could be useful, on top of whatever punishment is dished out.

These were mainly adopted because the process time was far less (about a tenth ) rather than for moral reasons.

Bankers' 'crimes'
Whilst I agree that the definition of crimes is questionable with regard to bankers etc., society places a far higher importance to crimes that involve violence, e.g. robbery as opposed to theft; aggravated burglary as opposed to burglary.

 

[Charlie Livesey was my hero]

Can any of those on this thread that live abroad let us know what news regarding these riots/looting have been reported over there and what is being said at present.

My daughter lives in Switzerland and has come over for a visit. She arrived Friday and was surprised to see London standing. According to Swiss News on Thursday night, the riots were still rife throughout England, the Police had lost total control and there was talk of calling the army in. She was shocked to discover the truth.

Is this how all Europeans see us??

 

[Norwayhornet]

I think Norway have overstated it as well ,Charlie this is only a guess , but I would assume that yes that is how europeans see us now
Sensational news gets more viewers or sells more papers so it wouldnt surprise me if it was hyped up some!

 

[Charlie Livesey was my hero]

Good morning Norway

Norway (the nation) have their own problems at present which was covered wall to wall here. I'm sure it's a bit like 'we may have our problems but look how bad they are'.

 

[Charlie Livesey was my hero]

As for the Swiss they always have bad reports about us. That was why they were pleased we did not go to the last European Championships.