Off Topic Politics Thread

[Libby]

Time moves on. The settlement happened a generation ago.

Using this argument is pretty weak IMO. There has been ample time for both sides to strive for peace. Instead both sides have chosen more violence.

It’s an insane issue I agree. There is no solution. This is why it never ends. I don’t pretend to have the answers, or agree with any of it. I just am stating what I see as obvious based on where we are: Israel has no choice now but to wipe Hamas out.

Well no the illegal settlements are still happening today so it's not from a generation ago. Israel approved building another 5000 homes in the west bank in June this year.

'instead both sides have chosen violence'

So you acknowledge your previous bullshit of Israel just wanting to live in peace and the Palestinians attacking them is complete nonsense now then?

 

[Libby]

Mate I have no idea. I am on the Palestinian civilians side. I am on the Israeli civilians side. It’s easy to understand both sides sat here in our ivory tower.

I do truly believe what I posted yesterday though;

if you had given all the weapons in the Middle East to Israel last week, nothing would have changed. Israel is a democracy and wants to be a part of the global community. They aren’t the ones looking for a fight anymore.

If you had given every weapon in the Middle East to Hamas, Israel would have been ethnically cleansed. Hamas don’t care about anything other when wiping Jews out. (You can argue that’s justified from their point of view.)

But Hamas are 100% the ones hunting for genocide & ethnic cleansing here.

I don’t know. The whole situation is ****ed.

If they're not looking for a fight maybe they should stop forcing people from homes, attacking the minority population, and denying them necessities such as aid and water.

Israel don't want peace, they just want to go about their ethnic cleansing in a slow manner without being bothered by the media.

 

[Osvaldorama]

Well no the illegal settlements are still happening today so it's not from a generation ago. Israel approved building another 5000 homes in the west bank in June this year.

'instead both sides have chosen violence'

So you acknowledge your previous bullshit of Israel just wanting to live in peace and the Palestinians attacking them is complete nonsense now then?

No, I don’t. Israel have aimed for peace multiple times. Then they were attacked by Hamas terrorists.

Israelis just want a place to survive and call home. They don’t want endless wars. They don’t hate the Palestinians. At least this is how it was explained to me by my Israeli friend.

 

[Osvaldorama]

If they're not looking for a fight maybe they should stop forcing people from homes, attacking the minority population, and denying them necessities such as aid and water.

Israel don't want peace, they just want to go about their ethnic cleansing in a slow manner without being bothered by the media.

They were providing aid and water until this recent attack.

Put it this way; if roles were reversed for the last 17 years, and Hamas had the power that Israel does, do you think there would be any Jews left in the region?

 

[Libby]

No, I don’t. Israel have aimed for peace multiple times. Then they were attacked by Hamas terrorists.

Israelis just want a place to survive and call home. They don’t want endless wars. They don’t hate the Palestinians. At least this is how it was explained to me by my Israeli friend.

And if to build those homes you're kicking natives out of entire areas and leaving them with nothing, are that population meant to just stand by and take it?

When Israel murder children is that contributing towards peace too?

 

[Libby]

They were providing aid and water until this recent attack.

Put it this way; if roles were reversed for the last 17 years, and Hamas had the power that Israel does, do you think there would be any Jews left in the region?

No they weren't! They've stopped everything since this attack but have been limiting the amount of aid, goods etc which can go into Gaza since 2007

You're second part is a strawman and yes Hamas are committed to the destruction of Israel. Nobody is disputing that.

Israel would also completely wipe out the Palestinians if given the okay by the US.

That doesn't mean Israel have wanted peace. If you want peace maybe you don't spend decades attacking the other population and burning down their homes?

Honestly the idea that Israel have only ever wanted peace must be the most successful propaganda ever done by western media. Shocked that you oh all people have been sucked in by it.

 

[Archers Road]

Why?

It’s reality. It is better to know and understand the truth than pretend it doesn’t exist.

This is the problem with the liberal way of thinking. It is based on the mental frame of origin that everyone thinks like you and respects property rights & borders. Your entire liberal mindset comes from a position of immense privilege protected by… massive violence

You have a strange concept of reality Os. It seems to vary from day to day, and largely consist of whatever you decide it is that morning.

The Dark Ages ended over a thousand years ago, and most countries now have some concept of the Rule of Law. If respect for the law is an example of the ‘liberal way of thinking’, I suggest we stick with it for a bit.

 

[......loading......]

Mate I have no idea. I am on the Palestinian civilians side. I am on the Israeli civilians side. It’s easy to understand both sides sat here in our ivory tower.

I do truly believe what I posted yesterday though;

if you had given all the weapons in the Middle East to Israel last week, nothing would have changed. Israel is a democracy and wants to be a part of the global community. They aren’t the ones looking for a fight anymore.

If you had given every weapon in the Middle East to Hamas, Israel would have been ethnically cleansed. Hamas don’t care about anything other when wiping Jews out. (You can argue that’s justified from their point of view.)

But Hamas are 100% the ones hunting for genocide & ethnic cleansing here.

I don’t know. The whole situation is ****ed.

Yea but you are comparing the ones with the land to the ones without. If you swapped their positions and subjected the Israelis to 7 decades of abuse and marginalisation (on top of their long history of abuse and marginalisation) would they behave much differently? Did the Irish? Did the Basque people? Did any indigenous group anywhere denied self determination go down without a fight?

 

[Osvaldorama]

You have a strange concept of reality Os. It seems to vary from day to day, and largely consist of whatever you decide it is that morning.

The Dark Ages ended over a thousand years ago, and most countries now have some concept of the Rule of Law. If respect for the law is an example of the ‘liberal way of thinking’, I suggest we stick with it for a bit.

It doesn’t change at all I am very sure of my reality.

It is you and a few others on here that don’t really understand what is happening.

Physical power projection (war) is the only means humans have ever used to solve disputes. The only reason you think differently is because you are brought up in a society that was the most violent and subjugated everyone else.

This rule of law which you believe in is an illusion

 

[......loading......]

It doesn’t change at all I am very sure of my reality.

It is you and a few others on here that don’t really understand what is happening.

Physical power projection (war) is the only means humans have ever used to solve disputes. The only reason you think differently is because you are brought up in a society that was the most violent and subjugated everyone else.

This rule of law which you believe in is an illusion

All ideas beyond eat, procreate and sleep are basically illusions. That doesn't mean that human abstract thought is meaningless, worthless nonsense. Money is a meaningless illusion and you seem fond of that. I think you should go back over the last week of posts and be honest with yourself. You have shifted position almost every day to help comfort you that your original position was correct.

You take basic truths, like might is an essential part of resolving conflict, and transform them into self-justifying rights. Having power does not justify abusing power. If it did, the world would be utter chaos. Even insane dictators don't go around attacking all their weaker neighbours. Israel is more powerful than Palestine does not justify all Israeli actions, just as Hamas having lots of weapons does not justify any of their actions.

The truth is you could have just listened and held your view. Your original view was correct. What Hamas did last week was absolutely unforgivable and not to be condoned. But your arguments have forced people to explain to you the context and why all this has happened - which could sound like making excuses for it. In response you have flipflopped like a fish on the dock, in ways everyone else can see but not you.

When you know everyone else is wrong and you are correct, what do we call that...?

 

[Saints_Alive]

Yea but you are comparing the ones with the land to the ones without. If you swapped their positions and subjected the Israelis to 7 decades of abuse and marginalisation (on top of their long history of abuse and marginalisation) would they behave much differently? Did the Irish? Did the Basque people? Did any indigenous group anywhere denied self determination go down without a fight?

Yes, just imagine if the Germans had successfully invaded Britain in 1940, does anyone imagine that there wouldn't be British terrorists/freedom fighters fighting the occupiers to try and restore power and drive them out.

 

[Saints_Alive]

This is an interesting video about Britain's role in helping to create the Arab-Israeli Conflict much the same as their betrayal of Irish people with the creation of Northern Ireland.

You must log in or register to see media

 

[Osvaldorama]

All ideas beyond eat, procreate and sleep are basically illusions. That doesn't mean that human abstract thought is meaningless, worthless nonsense. Money is a meaningless illusion and you seem fond of that. I think you should go back over the last week of posts and be honest with yourself. You have shifted position almost every day to help comfort you that your original position was correct.

You take basic truths, like might is an essential part of resolving conflict, and transform them into self-justifying rights. Having power does not justify abusing power. If it did, the world would be utter chaos. Even insane dictators don't go around attacking all their weaker neighbours. Israel is more powerful than Palestine does not justify all Israeli actions, just as Hamas having lots of weapons does not justify any of their actions.

The truth is you could have just listened and held your view. Your original view was correct. What Hamas did last week was absolutely unforgivable and not to be condoned. But your arguments have forced people to explain to you the context and why all this has happened - which could sound like making excuses for it. In response you have flipflopped like a fish on the dock, in ways everyone else can see but not you.

When you know everyone else is wrong and you are correct, what do we call that...?

So you agree with me then. When push comes to shove might is right and everything else is an illusion. Everything else becomes meaningless when your enemy won’t stop until your entire race is extinct. Thanks for clarifying

Where the **** have i said Israel’s actions are justified?

I am trying to put myself in each parties shoes in order to fully understand the situation.

Everyone on here was ****ing cheering Hamas on at first so don’t tell me that I’m wrong when all of you were defending the terrorists at first.

 

[......loading......]

So you agree with me then. When push comes to shove might is right and everything else is an illusion. Everything else becomes meaningless when your enemy won’t stop until your entire race is extinct. Thanks for clarifying

Where the **** have i said Israel’s actions are justified?

I am trying to put myself in each parties shoes in order to fully understand the situation.

Everyone on here was ****ing cheering Hamas on at first so don’t tell me that I’m wrong when all of you were defending the terrorists at first.

“All of you”. “Cheering Hamas”.

Find any evidence of this from me or shut the **** up.

 

[garysfc]

Not on this page very often but thought it might be interesting reading regarding the recent events. OMG & thank you to the masses of sensible comments & links from everyone apart Oz, of which I’m dumbfounded. Sorry to call you out but you’re living in cloud cuckoo land. Still shaking my head!

 

[StJabbo1]

Points to consider.
Q. Why are israeli settlements illegal?
A. The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) holds that the establishment of Israeli settlements violate Fourth Geneva Convention. The ICRC also holds that the displacement of Palestinians that may occur due to the settlements also violates Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention.
Q. How does israel justify settlements?
A. Israel has justified its civilian settlements by stating that a temporary use of land and buildings for various purposes appears permissible under a plea of military necessity and that the settlements fulfilled security needs.
Further reading.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/c...-3-israeli-settlements-and-international-law/
UN resolution 2016.
"The Security Council reaffirmed this afternoon that Israel’s establishment of settlements in Palestinian territory occupied since 1967, including East Jerusalem, had no legal validity, constituting a flagrant violation under international law and a major obstacle to the vision of two States living side-by-side in peace and security, within internationally recognized borders."
https://press.un.org/en/2016/sc12657.doc.htm

 

[Le Tissier's Laces]

So you agree with me then. When push comes to shove might is right and everything else is an illusion. Everything else becomes meaningless when your enemy won’t stop until your entire race is extinct. Thanks for clarifying

Where the **** have i said Israel’s actions are justified?

I am trying to put myself in each parties shoes in order to fully understand the situation.

Everyone on here was ****ing cheering Hamas on at first so don’t tell me that I’m wrong when all of you were defending the terrorists at first.

"Everyone on here was ****ing cheering Hamas on at first" - come on mate, that's just not true at all.

 

[Osvaldorama]

“All of you”. “Cheering Hamas”.

Find any evidence of this from me or shut the **** up.

“Mon the Palestinians”

“Hamas attack was a success”.

“there are no civilian Israelis”

Two solid examples plus the general anti-Semitic sentiment on here which is quite frankly appalling.

 

[Osvaldorama]

"Everyone on here was ****ing cheering Hamas on at first" - come on mate, that's just not true at all.

Not you LTL, but a couple of others that normally side with you on most issues

 

[......loading......]

“Mon the Palestinians”

“Hamas attack was a success”.

Two solid examples plus the general anti-Semitic sentiment on here which is quite frankly appalling.

Can. You. Read?