Off Topic Politics Thread

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garysfc said:
One of those debates that could go on forever. I read your first paragraph a few times & to me there’s a lot truth in that. Everywhere you look, there’s overlaps, influences & agitation (for centuries). I’m not expert on politics but I’ve traveled a lot in work, worldwide & for a long time (Eastern Europe, China, India early 80’s), feel I’m quite level headed & have an ability to see both sides. In the playground, we have a choice with the bully. Submit, join, fight & numerous inbetweenies. Poke him with a stick is risky. Maybe not wrong but risky. Life isn’t much different.
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The question becomes: is that a world we want? To the extent that we can make acting in that fashion undesireable for bullies, should we do so?

Because even last month, Ukraine had a choice here: prostrating themselves to Russia, or fighting for self-determination. They chose the latter. It was not a choice foisted upon them by the West...that appears to have been a significant part of Putin's miscalculation, and the reason he's now in quite a mess. Abandoning Ukraine as merely a natural puppet of Russia would be making that decision for them.
 
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ChilcoSaint said:
Life imitating art? This clip from Volodymyr Zelenskyy’s former career is spookily prophetic.
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It’s more that the existence of this clip suggests more support in Ukraine for joining the EU than I would have naturally assumed
 
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Osvaldorama said:
Love or hate Jordan Peterson, but this is an absolutely fantastic interview going in depth into the history of Russia with a professor of military history with a PhD in the Soviet Union:

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-jordan-b-peterson-podcast/id1184022695?i=1000552617590

Learned a lot about the mindset of Putin etc.
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I recommend “The rest is history” and their recent episode on the history of Ukraine. Basically savages Putin’s interpretation and offers some interesting parallels that we would understand more that sound ludicrous (particularly one involving Ireland)
 
Gregm1988 said:
It’s more that the existence of this clip suggests more support in Ukraine for joining the EU than I would have naturally assumed
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That’s because the UK is one of the few countries in Europe where the EU is portrayed in the mass media as a bad thing. It isn’t. It is one of the main reasons why World War 3 hasn’t actually happened yet, and people in countries like Ukraine know this only too well.
 
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ChilcoSaint said:
That’s because the UK is one of the few countries in Europe where the EU is portrayed in the mass media as a bad thing. It isn’t. It is one of the main reasons why World War 3 hasn’t actually happened yet, and people in countries like Ukraine know this only too well.
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Nail on the head. To me we are all humans; black, white, brown, yellow, orange (Trump) and the EU may be to some a 'super state' but it is IMO a mechanism joining together different cultures into one. Not perfect, but we all look out for fellow humans.
 
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Gregm1988 said:
It’s more that the existence of this clip suggests more support in Ukraine for joining the EU than I would have naturally assumed
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They are massively in favour of it, have you seen the Netflix doc on Ukraine’s revolution? They have fought and died for the right to even entertain joining it.

It makes what’s going on even sadder.
 
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thereisonlyoneno7 said:
Nail on the head. To me we are all humans; black, white, brown, yellow, orange (Trump) and the EU may be to some a 'super state' but it is IMO a mechanism joining together different cultures into one. Not perfect, but we all look out for fellow humans.
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Imagine a post-Putin Russia joining the EU. Then the doomsday clock could really be wound back quite a few steps.
 
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You don’t need to convince me. In my idealistic youth my dissertation was on how the only (reasonably tolerable) way to solve the global crises we were sure to be facing was a US led World Government (whilst they were still in a position to strongly take that position).

I don’t know if I touched briefly upon pandemics as one of the risks. I might have done. It was 2009 so there might have been a bird or swine flu panic close to then?

The following 13 years certainly highlighted my naivety. But as to whether I was wrong…
 
ChilcoSaint said:
That’s because the UK is one of the few countries in Europe where the EU is portrayed in the mass media as a bad thing. It isn’t. It is one of the main reasons why World War 3 hasn’t actually happened yet, and people in countries like Ukraine know this only too well.
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It’s not that. It’s more i assumed they might have more of an “Eastern” mindset closer to that of Putin (but still not as close as he assumes).

There is apparently skepticism of the EU in places like Hungary and Poland. Or is it now safe to say that there “was” skepticism. I assume that has been blown out the water now
 
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If anybody retains interest in hearing what my friend has been saying - it's not new really, but does at least provide some very learned context. It's restating a lot what was being said at the outset, which is being borne out to be true.

He thinks that the Russian "victory" in terms of taking over Ukraine is inevitable, as Putin knows NATO can't pick this fight, and the sheer rules of war and the fact that ultimately mass will always win means that they will, eventually, get there.

BUT

Then he has to garrison it, and that will take all, if not more, troops than he's put in so far. And they'll be facing continued insurgency/guerilla tactics etc.

The other point is that Putin has shown up his military. They've failed massively on logistics, but also conscripts will only work longer term and passably if they believe in what they are doing, or because they're defending something.

So they may win the battle, but the war is going to be a long, drawn out nightmare for them.
 
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Le Tissier's Laces said:
If anybody retains interest in hearing what my friend has been saying - it's not new really, but does at least provide some very learned context. It's restating a lot what was being said at the outset, which is being borne out to be true.

He thinks that the Russian "victory" in terms of taking over Ukraine is inevitable, as Putin knows NATO can't pick this fight, and the sheer rules of war and the fact that ultimately mass will always win means that they will, eventually, get there.

BUT

Then he has to garrison it, and that will take all, if not more, troops that he's put in so far. And they'll be facing continued insurgency/guerilla tactics etc.

The other point is that Putin has shown up his military. They've failed massively on logistics, but also conscripts will only work longer term and passably if they believe in what they are doing, or because they're defending something.

So they may win the battle, but the war is going to be a long, drawn out nightmare for them.
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It will be a case of which sanctions will be upheld after the conventional “victory” is achieved. And how long for
 
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thereisonlyoneno7 said:
Nail on the head. To me we are all humans; black, white, brown, yellow, orange (Trump) and the EU may be to some a 'super state' but it is IMO a mechanism joining together different cultures into one. Not perfect, but we all look out for fellow humans.
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"joining together different cultures into one." I'd add 'whilst recognising and celebrating the differences.'
 
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Le Tissier's Laces said:
If anybody retains interest in hearing what my friend has been saying - it's not new really, but does at least provide some very learned context. It's restating a lot what was being said at the outset, which is being borne out to be true.

He thinks that the Russian "victory" in terms of taking over Ukraine is inevitable, as Putin knows NATO can't pick this fight, and the sheer rules of war and the fact that ultimately mass will always win means that they will, eventually, get there.

BUT

Then he has to garrison it, and that will take all, if not more, troops that he's put in so far. And they'll be facing continued insurgency/guerilla tactics etc.

The other point is that Putin has shown up his military. They've failed massively on logistics, but also conscripts will only work longer term and passably if they believe in what they are doing, or because they're defending something.

So they may win the battle, but the war is going to be a long, drawn out nightmare for them.
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Does your friend draw parallels with the Checken war?
 
Le Tissier's Laces said:
If anybody retains interest in hearing what my friend has been saying - it's not new really, but does at least provide some very learned context. It's restating a lot what was being said at the outset, which is being borne out to be true.

He thinks that the Russian "victory" in terms of taking over Ukraine is inevitable, as Putin knows NATO can't pick this fight, and the sheer rules of war and the fact that ultimately mass will always win means that they will, eventually, get there.

BUT

Then he has to garrison it, and that will take all, if not more, troops that he's put in so far. And they'll be facing continued insurgency/guerilla tactics etc.

The other point is that Putin has shown up his military. They've failed massively on logistics, but also conscripts will only work longer term and passably if they believe in what they are doing, or because they're defending something.

So they may win the battle, but the war is going to be a long, drawn out nightmare for them.
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There is talk of Putin wanting to re-instate Viktor Yanukovych as President of Ukraine.

If he does this he can ensure guerrilla warfare pretty much forever, guaranteed. Shows how crazy and out of touch he is.
 
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