Off Topic Politics Thread

[ChilcoSaint]

Are you sure we could get the same then?? So why do we need an agreement to do that which we could do outside of the union...........Do you really think we cannot achieve those things on the outside? As for medicines there are shortages already so what's going to be new oh the cost........Have you checked Canada's prices they are currently cheaper than ours on most........Oh I agree we would have to get an agreement but it isn't imposible!!

Why would our position in the EU change? We are still members of the EU until we leave. And no, as I have said before, the main thing we have as bargaining power in negotiating trade deals is that we are members of the world’s largest trading bloc. Once we leave, what do we have to offer? We have a tiny steel industry which imports raw materials from other countries and which is owned by Tata, an Indian company. Our car industry depends on importing components from Europe. Er, that’s it!

Oh, Canada, glad you raised that! Canada has just reached a free trade agreement with the EU which we will benefit from, so cheaper medicines IF we stay in.

Trade deals aren’t impossible of course, but they take time. The deal Canada has struck took SEVEN YEARS to reach,

 

[fatletiss]

Leave with a deal???????????????????????????????? that would satisfy all camps???

Would it? What about those who don’t want to leave? How does it satisfy them?

 

[fatletiss]

Is there a better one on offer other than stay...........?........Remember we are trying to get all camps to agree on a compromise.....??

Are we trying that Beddy? I thought that was your thought and suggestion.

 

[ChilcoSaint]

Just to remind @Beddytare and others, it’s becoming increasingly clear that Leave only won the referendum because of the illegal activities of the Vote Leave campaign. I certainly would not have one tiny qualm of conscience if Brexit was completely scrapped.

 

[fatletiss]

Are you sure we could get the same then?? So why do we need an agreement to do that which we could do outside of the union...........Do you really think we cannot achieve those things on the outside? As for medicines there are shortages already so what's going to be new oh the cost........Have you checked Canada's prices they are currently cheaper than ours on most........Oh I agree we would have to get an agreement but it isn't imposible!!

I think Chilco’s point is - look at what we already have.

As for being able to achieve those things outside? Why the hell would they give us the same deal or better? Defeats the whole point of the Union and if you want to negotiate elsewhere, who is going to give us a better deal than a combined Europe get, if we are offering less?

 

[fatletiss]

I don’t know the 17m people that voted to leave, but the ones I do know, I have had four years of debates with. From the very beginning I have asked these people what will be better outside and closest I get to an answer is:

1. We can govern ourselves - although I get no examples of what has been implemented by EU that has been bad

2. We are a strong nation and have recovered before. We can be great again. I then ask what this means and what we can have that is great. I never get an answer.


Since the result, I only get this:

1. We have to honour the vote as the country voted to leave.

2. They just need to deliver the will of the people and just leave now with no deal.

Now what pisses me off here is the country didn’t vote to leave. Just over half did. No leavers ever want to accept that the vote took place with feck all information offered before the vote.
On the just leave it’s the will of the people, I always ask one question: “How many of those people voting to leave wanted to leave with no deal.” I never, and I mean never, get an answer to that question.


During the campaign, the two biggest topics promoted by the Leave campaign (to my knowledge) were, Money for the NHS and Immigration. I never hear these topics mentioned today in any conversation with leavers I know.

I just believe it’s been a bad case of xenophobia.

 

[thereisonlyoneno7]

I don’t know the 17m people that voted to leave, but the ones I do know, I have had four years of debates with. From the very beginning I have asked these people what will be better outside and closest I get to an answer is:

1. We can govern ourselves - although I get no examples of what has been implemented by EU that has been bad

2. We are a strong nation and have recovered before. We can be great again. I then ask what this means and what we can have that is great. I never get an answer.


Since the result, I only get this:

1. We have to honour the vote as the country voted to leave.

2. They just need to deliver the will of the people and just leave now with no deal.

Now what pisses me off here is the country didn’t vote to leave. Just over half did. No leavers ever want to accept that the vote took place with feck all information offered before the vote.
On the just leave it’s the will of the people, I always ask one question: “How many of those people voting to leave wanted to leave with no deal.” I never, and I mean never, get an answer to that question.


During the campaign, the two biggest topics promoted by the Leave campaign (to my knowledge) were, Money for the NHS and Immigration. I never hear these topics mentioned today in any conversation with leavers I know.

I just believe it’s been a bad case of xenophobia.

 

[Beddy]

The trouble is we are a split nation right down the middle..............Where is our sense of fair play and compromise...... Something the British people were famous for at one stage??

 

[TheSecondStain]

I don’t know the 17m people that voted to leave, but the ones I do know, I have had four years of debates with. From the very beginning I have asked these people what will be better outside and closest I get to an answer is:

1. We can govern ourselves - although I get no examples of what has been implemented by EU that has been bad

2. We are a strong nation and have recovered before. We can be great again. I then ask what this means and what we can have that is great. I never get an answer.


Since the result, I only get this:

1. We have to honour the vote as the country voted to leave.

2. They just need to deliver the will of the people and just leave now with no deal.

Now what pisses me off here is the country didn’t vote to leave. Just over half did. No leavers ever want to accept that the vote took place with feck all information offered before the vote.
On the just leave it’s the will of the people, I always ask one question: “How many of those people voting to leave wanted to leave with no deal.” I never, and I mean never, get an answer to that question.


During the campaign, the two biggest topics promoted by the Leave campaign (to my knowledge) were, Money for the NHS and Immigration. I never hear these topics mentioned today in any conversation with leavers I know.

I just believe it’s been a bad case of xenophobia.

Pretty much hit the nail on the head there. I would only add that the general public has been subjected to a continual dose of FUD** by the interested parties, since day one, and that true information has been at a minimum.

**Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt.

 

[fatletiss]

The trouble is we are a split nation right down the middle..............Where is our sense of fair play and compromise...... Something the British people were famous for at one stage??

Have we really ever been known for fair play and compromise? Do people in Middle Eastern territories and African territories think that? The Irish? The Argentinians? Indians? We have a history of trying to conquer and take anything we come across.

Maybe I’ve missed something here as history isn’t really my strong point, but my feel is we only try and compromise when we’re in trouble.

 

[fatletiss]

Pretty much hit the nail on the head there. I would only add that the general public has been subjected to a continual dose of FUD** by the interested parties, since day one, and that true information has been at a minimum.

**Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt.

And of course the lack of sensible law making “rules” for the vote, over what constitutes a majority. As last week in parliament, it’s not usually first over 50%

What the vote did tell us was that the public weren’t happy with a few situations and there was a clear indication that further discussions were needed.

 

[VocalMinority]

If the 52% continue to fail to form a functioning government around this issue I'll continue to back remain as is my democratic right. After all, it's in our constitution that the group in second place party tries after the largest fails.

But for sake of argument, if it looks like its going to be no deal and impossible to remain. Let's say leavers actually start working together, and no deal with the seemingly largest section of leave support take control. Would you remainers not then back May's deal over No deal if it's the only soft Brexit option on the table? (If a remain ever unitedly throw behind a leave option it would have the largest support)

Personally I've only looked into her deal on the points leavers have pointed out to me like backstop, so people here may well know more about it than me.

 

[ChilcoSaint]

And of course the lack of sensible law making “rules” for the vote, over what constitutes a majority. As last week in parliament, it’s not usually first over 50%

What the vote did tell us was that the public weren’t happy with a few situations and there was a clear indication that further discussions were needed.

Absolutely right. There are many issues that need sorting, some of them within the EU, and a lot more that are specific to the UK.

I was listening to the latest Brexitcast pod on BBC Sounds the other day (essential listening) and one of the questions raised by Katya Adler, the BBC’s Europe editor, was: why don’t the EU have an outreach programme in London and other UK cities, where people can go and ask questions about the way the EU works, what the Commissioners do, etc. They do this in most other EU countries, so why not here? If we end up staying in, this might help people feel more comfortable being part of a community of 250 million people. Everyone knows the EU needs reforming, and as a major player in the EU the UK should be leading those changes from within,

As for the UK issues, many people voted Leave as a protest against the Establishment, at successive governments who have imposed austerity on the less well-off to punish them for the mistakes made by a group of bankers, most of whom have escaped unpunished. These people should be top of the list for helping when Brexit is binned.

 

[ChilcoSaint]

If the 52% continue to fail to form a functioning government around this issue I'll continue to back remain as is my democratic right. After all, it's in our constitution that the group in second place party tries after the largest fails.

But for sake of argument, if it looks like its going to be no deal and impossible to remain. Let's say leavers actually start working together, and no deal with the seemingly largest section of leave support take control. Would you remainers not then back May's deal over No deal if it's the only soft Brexit option on the table? (If a remain ever unitedly throw behind a leave option it would have the largest support)

Personally I've only looked into her deal on the points leavers have pointed out to me like backstop, so people here may well know more about it than me.

No. There were many issues with May’s deal which arose from the red lines that she imposed on the negotiations. As a minimum, we need a Norway-style deal where we have access to the Single Market and Customs Union. We also need to have, in the Political Declaration part of the deal, to have the same guaranteed workers rights that we have in the EU.

Hopefully no deal will be off the table after tomorrow anyway, and if we can get the extension to Article 50 until the end of January, it gives time for the criminality of the Vote Leave campaign to be exposed and the referendum overturned.

Revoking Article 50 will then be the only option.

 

[VocalMinority]

No. There were many issues with May’s deal which arose from the red lines that she imposed on the negotiations. As a minimum, we need a Norway-style deal where we have access to the Single Market and Customs Union. We also need to have, in the Political Declaration part of the deal, to have the same guaranteed workers rights that we have in the EU.

Hopefully no deal will be off the table after tomorrow anyway, and if we can get the extension to Article 50 until the end of January, it gives time for the criminality of the Vote Leave campaign to be exposed and the referendum overturned.

Revoking Article 50 will then be the only option.

I would take a customs union over May's deal too, but to be clear, you would take no deal over May's deal?

 

[fatletiss]

I would take a customs union over May's deal too, but to be clear, you would take no deal over May's deal?

I wouldn’t “take” anything just to take something.

 

[ChilcoSaint]

I would take a customs union over May's deal too, but to be clear, you would take no deal over May's deal?

Of course not, but that won’t be the choice. Remain will have to be on the table, and I’m confident Remain will win.

 

[The Ides of March]

In all honesty there isn't a single person in parliament I would trust to end this misery of any party!! I may have voted out but I really cannot understand why we cannot reach an agreement between ourselves. Surely there is a happy medium between the stayers and the leavers why is it so hard........? I've put my immigration papers in...........

If we want to play the blame
Game let us start with Cameron foolishly setting up the referéndum very badly, and not providing a range of options. Then we have May who should have spent time thrashing out a Brexit program before submitting Article 50. Finally we can blame Johnson for undermining the former PM, and theDUP.

 

[VocalMinority]

Of course not, but that won’t be the choice. Remain will have to be on the table, and I’m confident Remain will win.

If there's a referendum.

If there's an election and Boris wins, he could well replace all the ministers representing their constituencies with ministers representing him and its seems a speaker representing him to push it through.

I'm trying to make the point that due to the large number of people that voted remain, and the fact that in a democracy their opinions still count as to which leave option we chose, that even May's deal has more support than no deal because remain voters who make up 48% of the country would vote for it before no deal. you really only need a 2% of leavers favoring it for that to be the majority, and a lot more than that favour various deals from the previous referendum result.

There's no way that no deal will ever ever ever be the democratic result of that referendum. Its the no dealers blocking every attempt at a soft Brexit that are really causing us not to leave.

Its a point i want to make to people supporting no deal for democratic reasons. but since I don't actually know remainer's order of preference i thought to ask, starting with the option that was already presented.

It makes it hard to make that statement when everyone is dodging giving a straight answer though.

 

[davecg69]

I don’t know the 17m people that voted to leave, but the ones I do know, I have had four years of debates with. From the very beginning I have asked these people what will be better outside and closest I get to an answer is:

1. We can govern ourselves - although I get no examples of what has been implemented by EU that has been bad

2. We are a strong nation and have recovered before. We can be great again. I then ask what this means and what we can have that is great. I never get an answer.


Since the result, I only get this:

1. We have to honour the vote as the country voted to leave.

2. They just need to deliver the will of the people and just leave now with no deal.

Now what pisses me off here is the country didn’t vote to leave. Just over half did. No leavers ever want to accept that the vote took place with feck all information offered before the vote.
On the just leave it’s the will of the people, I always ask one question: “How many of those people voting to leave wanted to leave with no deal.” I never, and I mean never, get an answer to that question.


During the campaign, the two biggest topics promoted by the Leave campaign (to my knowledge) were, Money for the NHS and Immigration. I never hear these topics mentioned today in any conversation with leavers I know.

I just believe it’s been a bad case of xenophobia.

Hear hear! Well said, Fats! I’m in the same situation with Leavers I know. The most vociferous keeps banging on about the fishing industry and “taking back control”. He doesn’t answer me, though, when I ask him how we plan to police it with the few fishing protection vessels we have and when I point out that the fishing licences are mainly owned by a few very rich people around the U.K.
Then I get the “honour the vote” crap rolled out .....