Off Topic Politics Thread

And for those few pence a day, this is what we collectively receive in return for being a member of the world’s largest trading bloc:

 

Verified facts have no relevance to those who are doing a Nelson Chilcs. When the referendum / GE campaigns (already started?) get underway targets have to be the new young voters and undecided. Oh add the overseas expats and retirees. Cameron did say the franchise would be extended to include the 15+ year emigrants. Hasn't happened yet.

 

Couldn’t agree more. Arguing with Brexiters is like asking Portsmouth supporters to explain quantum mechanics!

 

What currently amuses me is the crop of Remain voters calling talk shows and saying: " I voted Remain, but because I value democracy I just want Brexit done." If that were true then we would certainly be seeing movement in the polls away from the 52/48 result in the direction of Leave. In fact the movement has been in the opposite direction. I think that Young Pfeffel isn't the only one telling porkies.

 

To be countered with "I was a leaver but now have seen the light stop brexit now!"

 

Boris in 2013:

 

If we do leave they will be in for a big shock when they realise Brexit isn't finished and we still have years more negotiations and arguments on what our future relationship with Europe should be like and the rest of the world will be like.

They wont even be able to fall back on the, its what we voted for, or leave means leave arguments because we would have already left. At least thats something to look forward to i guess.

 

Tbf, on the other hand, if we do do the sensible thing and Remain, I do think [and hope] that it won't quite be business as usual. There are some things within the running of the EU that needs to change, and I think that many countries within the group are in agreement on that. And the whole EU exit thing is putting a lot of the group countries on stand-by, regards their membership.
Oddly, Farage and his cronies, made noises about backing out of the EU when it has long been Germany, France and the UK that has led the EU agenda. Those countries that don't have such influence are the ones who are looking to improve the conditions of their membership. And this is needful because Putin has long been sticking a wedge in wherever he can. And the data suggests that he has been remarkably successful, so far. Something to be extremely mindful of.

 

It's been my view throughout that we should stay in and lead or be amongst the leaders of a reform group. A lot of change needed it's another argument altogether.

 

My goodness. He actually said something which made complete sense from beginning to end. Someone must have scripted those words for him.

 

Originally I thought this too, reluctantly though, as mentioned in an earlier post the two main driving forces are unlikely to change anything within the EU especially France. Germany might be more open to change as they at least see the difficulties not only for us but others, but France will always veto anything that weakens their grip on power within the bloc as long as they can. I guess many will disagree but that’s how I’ve seen it for some years now.

 

Thats a situation that was far worse when the countries of Europe were independent
The veto power works the same was as it would for independent countries. If every country in Europe was independent, countries would still have to meet up to discuss and come up with resolutions for issues. only without the predefined rules and structure, and the courts to enforce them, countries have a far easier time back out of or change agreements, enforce them poorly. Just look at how we and america agreed on how to deal with Iran, then a few years later US backs out and starts sanctioning our own 'sovereign' companies. that is the type of democracy you are voting for if you choose leave. That's a stronger Veto than France has within the EU.

Improving the democracy of the EU is the area i want to see most improve too. But it has progressed rapidly, you've got to remember how young it is compared to the age of most countries. Democracy takes centuries to develop. Its why the middle east and other young governments still have trouble. But even now it is still far more democratic than going back to having each country act with impunity without any democratic oversight.

Do you really want to go back to the type of democracy where countries just bully eachother with threats to get what they want, which is quite aptly being demonstrated by the UK and EU institutions since we started negotiating independently? That is how all negotiation will have to be when we don't have the rule of law provided by the EU protecting us. Its not specific to brexit. Sounds like you're tired of it after just a few years.

I just don't see how you expect this to improve by leaving.

 

Well said.

 

A pro-Remain March in London organised by March for Change was attacked today by about 200 thugs organised by a group called the Democratic Football Lads Alliance.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/lon...teers-and-remainers-demonstrate-a4231296.html

The stormtroopers are beginning to emerge from their ratholes.

 

Brexit, Trump et al are normalising violence and bad behaviour.

 

You have made some excellent points and I appreciate the angle you are coming from. I hope that you realise I’m not a JRM type of person or hold such hardline views as him or his close mates. But having been around the block a few times, right back to when we first applied to join the Common Market, France for some reason or other seems to have a problem coping with our efforts in the past to reform the EU , it’s predecessors etc and the others don’t appear to have a means of overcoming this problem. I concede that leaving will not in itself resolve the democratic deficit in the EU. However I do believe that the organisation first needs to accept it needs to be more reflective as to how it best represents the interests of 250 million people, currently I don’t see any enthusiasm or recognition that such improvement is required. David Cameron’s ill fated trip around the capitals of Europe, pre-referendum, on reflection gave us more signs of this level of denial than we are perhaps prepared to admit. Even some of Germany’s politicians are beginning to wake up to this state of affairs, unfortunately, those not in a position to have a great deal of influence. Believe me, I really want to see an end to uncertainty, the differences that divide us and a solution which will mean having to be a compromise for everybody somewhere along the lines.

 

Amber Rudd...she's gone!

 

Won't bother the right-wing loons, they'll be delighted that they can stand up another loon for election in a blue rosette. Worrying times.