Off Topic Politics Thread

[The Ides of March]

Adding up the crude seats calculation (in a tweet lower down) it shows what I said might happen. While leavers will point to Brexit Party winning, and Brexit + UKIP increasing (from the original 24 UKIP seats won in 2014) the total (alleged) pro Brexit (BrexitParty+UKIP+Con+DUP) count goes down, even if only by 2 in this example (43 last time, 41 this time.)

***the poll ignores NI, so I have taken the result of 2014 where DUP got 1 of the 3 seats.

*****and that makes the assumption that the Tory party is actually a pro-Brexit party.

You must log in or register to see media

They haven't even got any candidates yet. We don't even know if the EU elections will take place yet. Such is the organisation of the present Government it is making Central Governments look supremely efficient. I take this pol with a pinch of salt.

 

[Schad]

the production of concrete or cement accounts for 5 to 10% of global co2 emissions, this is mainly from the production of lime, they are now trying to make a more eco friendly lime.

Absolutely, though a fair amount of that seems to be the burning of fuel, etc, things that can be reduced on the back end as well.

my post was more about the powers that be are doing a piss poor job of explaining to people how first of all warming will effect upcoming generations, and most importantly what people can do as individuals and as nations.

There is a huge volume of information available in which the powers-that-be have explained these things. The problem is that the public doesn't really want to know about it.

For example, if tomorrow everybody in the west said they would not buy a new car with petrol or diesel engine, car companies would be forced to meet demand with better electric options, private companies would rush to install charging points (much of this would be done by big oil companies I would assume as they have the money and the foresight not to end up like Blockbuster or Kodak)

This is where incentivization is important. You won't get everyone to state that they won't buy a new fuel-burning engine, but you can tip the playing field in favour of electric vehicles. That's where tax credits, raising taxes on gasoline/diesel, carbon pricing and the rest comes into play.

I do not think that the seas rising will be such a big issue, first of, the polar caps are melting around the edges, but they are getting thicker in general. The main problem at the moment is lack of fresh water in a lot of countries. Its really hard to scare someone by saying the sea is rising 1mm a year, but no water coming from the tap is a real slap to the face.

They are not getting thicker, they are getting thinner.

Israel now gets most of its fresh water from desalination plants of which they have 5 and each plant produces enough water for 2 million people, imagine if Australia builds 10 for its water supply, South Africa builds 20 (would need more) North African countries another 20 and central African countries another 20, even England may need to build some if the summers keep getting hotter. this could also effect the sea level as dessert land could be used for agriculture, imagine if North Africa was to follow in Israels steps?

The lack of available fresh water is absolutely a problem, and will become more of a problem over time. Global warming exacerbates that problem, amplifying desertification and soil degradation. This is actually the bigger issue with concrete: the process uses an awful lot of water.

Desalination is going to be regrettably necessary, but reducing the water intensity of farming is going to be hugely important. The Ogallala aquifer in the American Plains may start running dry within a couple decades, and the rivers that feed agriculture in the American west are starting to run dry...in large part because there is little to no snowpack most winters in the mountains that feed the rivers. These are complementary problems requiring complementary solutions.

 

[ImpSaint]

The first act surely has to be to stop cutting down the rain forests and start replacing the trees that have been lost. Anyone who saw the David Attenborough programme last night will have seen the vast areas visible from satellite photos which have been lost around the whole world, and it won’t be long before too much of the “lungs of the world” will have been destroyed to be able to reverse the effect. None of the rain forests are in a China or India, by the way, and all are being sacrificed to satisfy the greed of us in the West for palm oil, meat, and other unnecessary products.

People should also eat less meat, the production of which directly contributes to greenhouse gases.

I agree about the power stations, and there is no excuse for any new house not having PV panels on the roof, it should now be compulsory.

It’s too easy to point fingers at China and India and be complacent about the West. If you look at carbon emissions per capita China and India are way down the list compared to the USA.

A lot of forests are cut down for things like coffee (Millenial's favourite pastime) and biofuels!!! There was an article and a CH4 show about our power stations running on wood pellets that came from US forests that were supposedly eco-friendly yet they never replanted anything.......and burning these wood pellets doesn;t count in the carbon calculations from those power stations either.

The problem we have here is about "appearances." Yes we can move forward making ourselves the angels and brag about it.........but what we would actually be doing is buying stuff from somewhere else that produces the carbon footprint instead. Moving the problem around the world.

I'm not suggesting that we should be saying "we should carry on because they are." Just that it is very naive to bang on about the UK needing to do something while ignoring that business would just move the footprint to another country.

I think most on here know I am all for looking after the forests (including our own) and planting more trees as well. I am also right up there in eco-friendliness, probably more than most of those bottled water swigging protestors in fact. However the reality is that most of those protesting are blissfully unaware of what they are asking for's real consequence, and they celebrate victories that aren't victories.

It would be very interesting for me to see their houses (yes some will be properly eco-friendly) and assess how they live and what they live with compared to myself. They really do go after parts of the argument while willfully (maybe subconciously) ignoring a lot more.

But then I am called a heathen because I think people should be much more locally minded, not use cars so much, not travel so much and buy much more local produce.

One eco arguer the other day talked about how our new power awareness meant that the LED TVs we watch use so much less than the CRTs we used to watch. This however is only true per inch. Our 50" LEDs use the same power in total as the 21" CRT would have "back in the day." LCD uses more. Not many people had mahoosive CRTS like we have LEDs and they didn't have it on all day long either so the truth is our TVs are using more power than back then. Add on the power for the wifi router, the processors used for other smartTV apps like youtube etc.

What maddens me is that when I change energy supplier they insist on a massive DD payment not believing me that it is too much and they will owe me. They just refuse to believe how much my bill will be for a family with 3 kids even when I give them the actual gas and elec KWh. Yet again 6 months in they owe me £300 and we haven't even hit summer yet. They will owe me £700 again at change time like nearly every year.

 

[benditlikeabanana]

Please give evidence for these claims, as most of them seem to conflict with the accepted science, especially rising sea levels.

Edit: an estimated 146 million people live less than1 metre above sea level.

you can look at different sources and get different information about the thickness of polar ice, lots of different sources say that the ice is increasing and lots say its getting thinner, who do you believe?
I did watch a documentary about Glacier Girl, the lost P38 that since it was abandoned on greenland in 1942, had been buried under 282 feet of ice in the 50 odd years until some guy decided to find the lost 8 planes. It took him several years to find the planes as the glacier had shifted 2 miles and they could only get out 1 plane using hot jet water. The P38 Glacier Girl is fully restored and flying at airshows, the guy that originally found the P38 went back a few years later to try to get other planes, 5 P38 and 2 Liberators, but had to admit defeat because they were under even more ice than before.
The sea level seems to be rising between 2mm and 3.4mm a year , i only said 1 mm as an example of it not scaring most people, even 3mm a year will not get most people concerned, most people would look at it and think 50cm over a 100 years is nothing to be alarmed at. man has been fighting the sea for hundreds of years, the old Southampton Walls used to be the sea front, and 100 years ago the old Toys r Us by the train station would have been in the sea, and the road was the shore line

 

[VocalMinority]

you can look at different sources and get different information about the thickness of polar ice, lots of different sources say that the ice is increasing and lots say its getting thinner, who do you believe?
I did watch a documentary about Glacier Girl, the lost P38 that since it was abandoned on greenland in 1942, had been buried under 282 feet of ice in the 50 odd years until some guy decided to find the lost 8 planes. It took him several years to find the planes as the glacier had shifted 2 miles and they could only get out 1 plane using hot jet water. The P38 Glacier Girl is fully restored and flying at airshows, the guy that originally found the P38 went back a few years later to try to get other planes, 5 P38 and 2 Liberators, but had to admit defeat because they were under even more ice than before.
The sea level seems to be rising between 2mm and 3.4mm a year , i only said 1 mm as an example of it not scaring most people, even 3mm a year will not get most people concerned, most people would look at it and think 50cm over a 100 years is nothing to be alarmed at. man has been fighting the sea for hundreds of years, the old Southampton Walls used to be the sea front, and 100 years ago the old Toys r Us by the train station would have been in the sea, and the road was the shore line

That's just how glaciers work. Snow and Ice pile up on top and pushes everything downward and outward, flowing like a slow river. Doesn't mean they're not getting thinner.

That's the same kind of misinformation campaign that populists like to use to muddle the facts in order to let people believe what is most convenient for them to believe. Trumps a master of it.

 

[Archers Road]

They haven't even got any candidates yet. We don't even know if the EU elections will take place yet. Such is the organisation of the present Government it is making Central Governments look supremely efficient. I take this pol with a pinch of salt.

The polls probably aren’t that far off. 27% of the electorate may well feel strongly enough about Brexit to vote for any party led by the charismatic charlatan that got us here in the first place.

That’s no reason for government to continue ignoring the views of everyone else though, in favour of appeasing that 27%

 

[The Ides of March]

The polls probably aren’t that far off. 27% of the electorate may well feel strongly enough about Brexit to vote for any party led by the charismatic charlatan that got us here in the first place.

That’s no reason for government to continue ignoring the views of everyone else though, in favour of appeasing that 27%

From my perspective, Farage is doing the dirty work and is being pushed from behind by some very powerful and obnoxious people. The real danger is within the Tory party and the ERG group. If the Tories get slammed in the local and posible EU elections, this might strengthen the demands of the ERG in trying the get the hardest of Brexit's or no-deal.

 

[ChilcoSaint]

you can look at different sources and get different information about the thickness of polar ice, lots of different sources say that the ice is increasing and lots say its getting thinner, who do you believe?
I did watch a documentary about Glacier Girl, the lost P38 that since it was abandoned on greenland in 1942, had been buried under 282 feet of ice in the 50 odd years until some guy decided to find the lost 8 planes. It took him several years to find the planes as the glacier had shifted 2 miles and they could only get out 1 plane using hot jet water. The P38 Glacier Girl is fully restored and flying at airshows, the guy that originally found the P38 went back a few years later to try to get other planes, 5 P38 and 2 Liberators, but had to admit defeat because they were under even more ice than before.
The sea level seems to be rising between 2mm and 3.4mm a year , i only said 1 mm as an example of it not scaring most people, even 3mm a year will not get most people concerned, most people would look at it and think 50cm over a 100 years is nothing to be alarmed at. man has been fighting the sea for hundreds of years, the old Southampton Walls used to be the sea front, and 100 years ago the old Toys r Us by the train station would have been in the sea, and the road was the shore line

What you’re suggesting doesn’t actually fit with reality. Of course the snow and ice gets thicker locally, during winter it’s bloody cold! But watch this short video to see how the overall amount of ice in the Arctic has reduced. A similar picture can be seen in the Antarctic.

You must log in or register to see media

 

[Archers Road]

From my perspective, Farage is doing the dirty work and is being pushed from behind by some very powerful and obnoxious people. The real danger is within the Tory party and the ERG group. If the Tories get slammed in the local and posible EU elections, this might strengthen the demands of the ERG in trying the get the hardest of Brexit's or no-deal.

Dunno mate. Without Farage’s dubious charisma, the whole Leave bandwagon would have remained in the dark recesses of the Tory party’s extreme Little England wing.

UKIP always were a bunch of fruitcake racist loonies, the Brexit part will be no different - without Farage’s phony bonhomie, and his love affair with the British press, the project would never have had any wings.

The likes of Boris and Gove are bandwagon jumpers btw. Generally only the stupidest Tories were ever pro-Brexit, until recently when some of more cynical recognised it’s potential for career advancement

 

[Onionman]

I do not think that the seas rising will be such a big issue, first of, the polar caps are melting around the edges, but they are getting thicker in general. The main problem at the moment is lack of fresh water in a lot of countries. Its really hard to scare someone by saying the sea is rising 1mm a year, but no water coming from the tap is a real slap to the face.

You do realise that rising sea levels is not due to the melting of ice? It's thermal expansion that's worrying. Things get bigger (oceans included) as they warm.

Israel now gets most of its fresh water from desalination plants of which they have 5 and each plant produces enough water for 2 million people, imagine if Australia builds 10 for its water supply, South Africa builds 20 (would need more) North African countries another 20 and central African countries another 20, even England may need to build some if the summers keep getting hotter. this could also effect the sea level as dessert land could be used for agriculture, imagine if North Africa was to follow in Israels steps?

I know you're a big believer in Trumponomics so I suspect you've got this nugget from a Trump-supporting website but it's bilge-water of the lowest grade. Maths shows it.

Israelis use about 200L per person per day so it's a good figure for a water stressed nation. 73 cubic metres a year. If all those plants were built you'd be talking about 10.2 billion cubic metres. If all that water vanished from the oceans (surface area 361 million million square metres) then the sea level would drop by 0.02mm.

That's every single person in those countries using only desalinated water for a year and all that water literally disappearing rather than being recycled into the oceans the way things actually work. You need new news sources.

Vin

 

[ChilcoSaint]

You do realise that rising sea levels is not due to the melting of ice? It's thermal expansion that's worrying. Things get bigger (oceans included) as they warm.

Absolutely. The melting of the ice caps is very significant for another important reason though, the effect on weather systems. The latent heat required to melt the monumental amounts of ice which is vanishing comes from the oceans, which get cooler and this changes historic ocean currents, which in turn affects things like the North Atlantic jet stream. This explains why we in the UK are experiencing more and more extreme weather events like severe storms and record breaking heatwaves. It also explains the extreme cold and extreme heat in other parts of the world.

 

[Brinkworth Saint]

The first act surely has to be to stop cutting down the rain forests and start replacing the trees that have been lost. Anyone who saw the David Attenborough programme last night will have seen the vast areas visible from satellite photos which have been lost around the whole world, and it won’t be long before too much of the “lungs of the world” will have been destroyed to be able to reverse the effect. None of the rain forests are in a China or India, by the way, and all are being sacrificed to satisfy the greed of us in the West for palm oil, meat, and other unnecessary products.

People should also eat less meat, the production of which directly contributes to greenhouse gases.

I agree about the power stations, and there is no excuse for any new house not having PV panels on the roof, it should now be compulsory.

It’s too easy to point fingers at China and India and be complacent about the West. If you look at carbon emissions per capita China and India are way down the list compared to the USA.

There’s a lot of sense in the points you make. However the goals set by the ER movement are simply ridiculous, unless they are happy to bring about a total breakdown of society as we know it. Millions of people would be quickly unemployed if their goal: Government must act now to halt biodiversity loss and reduce greenhouse gas emissions to net zero by 2025, came about. Getting to work or school, buying food, health management and access to medical care would simply stop for most as the replacement methodology of such daily habits is not within reach either physically or affordability. International trade would simply cease as the current transport to facilitate same could not be used. I’m also pretty sure that the millions of tourists both here and elsewhere will, overall, be highly resistant to such draconian measures preventing further holidays etc. Now I’m also sure that the hard core ER people will say this is all irrelevant given the crisis they claim is upon us. However, unless every single one of us stops using plastic in any form, completely stops using planes, cars, lorries, ships etc., refuses to use electricity produced by anything other than natural sources, or gas, refuses to work in any environment or workplace that includes the use of all the aforementioned facilities/systems etc., their key demand is pure fantasy in the timescale given. That is not to say nothing should be done, of course we must get rid of most of the pollution and pollutants ASAP, but I cannot take seriously their current rationale nor find their methods of protest as anything but as completely unacceptable.

 

[ChilcoSaint]

There’s a lot of sense in the points you make. However the goals set by the ER movement are simply ridiculous, unless they are happy to bring about a total breakdown of society as we know it. Millions of people would be quickly unemployed if their goal: Government must act now to halt biodiversity loss and reduce greenhouse gas emissions to net zero by 2025, came about. Getting to work or school, buying food, health management and access to medical care would simply stop for most as the replacement methodology of such daily habits is not within reach either physically or affordability. International trade would simply cease as the current transport to facilitate same could not be used. I’m also pretty sure that the millions of tourists both here and elsewhere will, overall, be highly resistant to such draconian measures preventing further holidays etc. Now I’m also sure that the hard core ER people will say this is all irrelevant given the crisis they claim is upon us. However, unless every single one of us stops using plastic in any form, completely stops using planes, cars, lorries, ships etc., refuses to use electricity produced by anything other than natural sources, or gas, refuses to work in any environment or workplace that includes the use of all the aforementioned facilities/systems etc., their key demand is pure fantasy in the timescale given. That is not to say nothing should be done, of course we must get rid of most of the pollution and pollutants ASAP, but I cannot take seriously their current rationale nor find their methods of protest as anything but as completely unacceptable.

XR want net zero emissions by 2025. The technology already exists to make huge inroads into our carbon footprint, but no government seems willing to take more than baby steps. If we were at war, the whole of industry would be mobilised to come up with solutions, and society would be restructured to live within the limits the situation demanded. What the XR people are trying to get across is that climate change requires that same kind of universal effort, or we’re all screwed anyway. It’s the unwillingness to stop pandering to the oil lobby, the agrochemical industry, and a host of other vested interests which is unacceptable, not the fact that people are simply pointing out what needs to be done.

 

[benditlikeabanana]

You do realise that rising sea levels is not due to the melting of ice? It's thermal expansion that's worrying. Things get bigger (oceans included) as they warm.



I know you're a big believer in Trumponomics so I suspect you've got this nugget from a Trump-supporting website but it's bilge-water of the lowest grade. Maths shows it.

Israelis use about 200L per person per day so it's a good figure for a water stressed nation. 73 cubic metres a year. If all those plants were built you'd be talking about 10.2 billion cubic metres. If all that water vanished from the oceans (surface area 361 million million square metres) then the sea level would drop by 0.02mm.

That's every single person in those countries using only desalinated water for a year and all that water literally disappearing rather than being recycled into the oceans the way things actually work. You need new news sources.

Vin

the water expanding due to he warming of the seas is indeed the reason for the rising seas, this however is not my main problem, my main concern is the long term effect of dumping trillions cubic metres of fresh water into the sea and effecting currents for generations to come.
my point about desalinisation plants with Israel is not because the people use a lot of water, it is that they have basically turned dessert into some of the most fertile and productive land, and could you imagine if Syria, Egypt, Libya and Morocco went along the same lines and the sheer amount of water would be needed by these countries.
I do indeed like several things about Trump, maybe if Britain had someone leading Brexit that actually believed in it then you would not be in the middle of this Brexit ****show, I also believe that the NHS is very good thing, free college education is also a very good thing, that global warming is happening so I would consider myself to be fairly central on my politics.

 

[shoot_spiderman]

the water expanding due to he warming of the seas is indeed the reason for the rising seas, this however is not my main problem, my main concern is the long term effect of dumping trillions cubic metres of fresh water into the sea and effecting currents for generations to come.
my point about desalinisation plants with Israel is not because the people use a lot of water, it is that they have basically turned dessert into some of the most fertile and productive land, and could you imagine if Syria, Egypt, Libya and Morocco went along the same lines and the sheer amount of water would be needed by these countries.
I do indeed like several things about Trump, maybe if Britain had someone leading Brexit that actually believed in it then you would not be in the middle of this Brexit ****show, I also believe that the NHS is very good thing, free college education is also a very good thing, that global warming is happening so I would consider myself to be fairly central on my politics.

As Chilco says, the issue is that the extreme denyers and diverters are still driving the mainstream and 'radical' Environmentalistrs are seen as nutters
There are many different aspects of our environmental impact and argument about the details plays into the hands of the denyers and diverters who continue to fill their pockets with gold. We need to change and may still die trying

Is it not extreme to think human progress can be measured by financial and economic growth based on continuously growing consumption while killing off the natural infrastructure we all rely upon?


Someone who really believes in Brexit? That's Boris and JRM and the reason they're not leading it is because we haven't quite reached the level of insanity here for that to happen. Whereas in the States you reached that level and elected Trump

The ****show IS Brexit, not the attempts to achieve it by a Parliament that has the sense to know it is a ****show

 

[Onionman]

What we do need is a rallying person for Remain. One person with a realistic chance of power who says "Yes, we know what a ****ing triumph Brexit is turning out to be, so whatever deal we come up with will be presented to you, the people, in a binding referendum with the option to remain if you prefer". Someone who can move the masses with a vision to sell of all the good things about the EU. Someone who points out that freedom of movement is a good thing not something to be treated like an unexploded bomb. An orator to lead public opinion. Every remain voter (last opinion poll 58%) would get behind them.

Step forwards Jeremy Cor.... oh, hang on.

Vin

 

[ChilcoSaint]

the water expanding due to he warming of the seas is indeed the reason for the rising seas, this however is not my main problem, my main concern is the long term effect of dumping trillions cubic metres of fresh water into the sea and effecting currents for generations to come.
my point about desalinisation plants with Israel is not because the people use a lot of water, it is that they have basically turned dessert into some of the most fertile and productive land, and could you imagine if Syria, Egypt, Libya and Morocco went along the same lines and the sheer amount of water would be needed by these countries.
I do indeed like several things about Trump, maybe if Britain had someone leading Brexit that actually believed in it then you would not be in the middle of this Brexit ****show, I also believe that the NHS is very good thing, free college education is also a very good thing, that global warming is happening so I would consider myself to be fairly central on my politics.

What the actual **** do you think happens when it rains?

The whole point about water is that it is reusable, and water used for irrigation of a desert (not a dessert ) eventually finds its way back to the sea. Always has, always will.

And as SS says, there is no good about Brexit whatsoever.

 

[shoot_spiderman]

Came across this just now. By Stephen Fry.

You must log in or register to see media

“If you’re not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.”

Took me a while to find the time to watch this

Liking your signature. This is the dilemma of the modern age. I'm often rattling on about the con trick that has convinced so many Brits that as they are now 'middle class' they need to vote for the Tories who so clearly represent their interests

WTF makes JC more dangerous than JRM to ordinary people?

This really is the Matrix. Take the red pill people !!!

 

[shoot_spiderman]

What we do need is a rallying person for Remain. One person with a realistic chance of power who says "Yes, we know what a ****ing triumph Brexit is turning out to be, so whatever deal we come up with will be presented to you, the people, in a binding referendum with the option to remain if you prefer". Someone who can move the masses with a vision to sell of all the good things about the EU. Someone who points out that freedom of movement is a good thing not something to be treated like an unexploded bomb. An orator to lead public opinion. Every remain voter (last opinion poll 58%) would get behind them.
Step forwards Jeremy Cor.... oh, hang on.
Vin

Stephen Fry?

 

[davecg69]

What we do need is a rallying person for Remain. One person with a realistic chance of power who says "Yes, we know what a ****ing triumph Brexit is turning out to be, so whatever deal we come up with will be presented to you, the people, in a binding referendum with the option to remain if you prefer". Someone who can move the masses with a vision to sell of all the good things about the EU. Someone who points out that freedom of movement is a good thing not something to be treated like an unexploded bomb. An orator to lead public opinion. Every remain voter (last opinion poll 58%) would get behind them.

Step forwards Jeremy Cor.... oh, hang on.

Vin

Exactly .....