We agree entirely on the first sentenceThe language you use in the second differs from mine. I would suggest "out of reluctance" not "out of spite."
Do you agree that it’s not a rational choice?
Off Topic Politics Thread
- Thread starter ChilcoSaint
- Start date
-
Please bear with us on the new site integration and fixing any known bugs over the coming days. If you can not log in please try resetting your password and check your spam box. If you have tried these steps and are still struggling email [email protected] with your username/registered email address
-
Do you agree that it’s not a rational choice?
I would prefer a deal but the answer at the moment is "If I had to choose" and as I want to leave the EU, then it forces me to that side of the argument, unfortunately.
Not "out of spite." It isn't just to wind up those who have different preferences (despite the debate being pushed into an "us vs them" argument.)
Your "rational choice" argument is the same old "stupid people vs clever people" argument we have had for 2 and a half years. If rational means accepting the political class' decisions and never questioning them (because to do so would be irrational) then put me in the irrational camp.
Last edited:
According to what you linked it does have majority support as long as it's not called a referendum.4% I can believe. Likely 4% think a deal means remaining too but not much analysis on that side of the argument. The exaggerated high numbers are as ridiculous as Adonis and Campbell saying that the people's vote now has majority support:
You must log in or register to see media
Full study released in the past half hour
http://ukandeu.ac.uk/new-report-rev...ger-than-party-identities/?platform=hootsuite
“Just 4%” eh? What a completely insignificant minority that is! Negligible, you might say. Does have a familiar ring to it, that 4%, though.4% I can believe. Likely 4% think a deal means remaining too but not much analysis on that side of the argument. The exaggerated high numbers are as ridiculous as Adonis and Campbell saying that the people's vote now has majority support:
You must log in or register to see media
Full study released in the past half hour
http://ukandeu.ac.uk/new-report-rev...ger-than-party-identities/?platform=hootsuite
Oh wait, if I subtract 48% from 52%, what do I get?
Yes, language. I notice you missed out the part that made a distinction between it being a decision on "how to leave" and if "remain is an option."
You assume there is no "4%" on the other side of the argument. Considering that 50% of remainers answered that they thought over 10% of government spending goes to the EU plus the amount of remainers (as well as leavers) that didn't know half of the questions on the EU like "the EU commission is the name for the EU parliament."
Even in this thread it has been pointed out how "little" of government spend actually goes to the EU.
Considering this has been No1 on the news for a few years now it is crazy how many people on both sides still don't know these things, however it counters the argument that remainers are much more informed than leavers as they are equally oblivious to these simple facts.
Last edited:
Do you agree that leaving without a deal will have a potentially catastrophic effect on our economy?
How do you think Brexit (with or without a deal) will affect your family, for the better and for the worse?
If you reply to these questions Imps, please remember that brevity is the soul of wit.
Yeah I did notice the parts that had a majority for a people's vote with a remain option.
I don't think anyone can argue with your use of phrasing "potentially." Yes any decision ever either way has the potential. "catastrophic" Different people will see things differently and "catastrophic" is a subjective measure.
I would suggest that the consensus has always been (other than with some that the media goes to with the intention of presenting as representative) that there will be a short term hit, either in terms of disruption or financially. Again "short term" is as equally subjective as "catastrophic." Short term to one person might be a year, another might be a decade etc.
I never said it would be rosy, nor expected it to. That is what remain say that "leavers say." I have always contested the whole focus purely on economics.
I have no idea how Brexit (or non Brexit for that matterr) will affect my family for the better or worse. Anyone that says they know (either way) is guessing. The EU evolves. The remain argument has always been to sell remain as being a stationary thing ignoring that the EU even now is pushing on with the things we were told were heresay. More integration, EU army etc.
If you asked the question with less emphatic wording then you might get the answer you wanted, although then you have to take that answer and assess what that answer means rather than applying that answer to the question as you originally worded it.
"Do you agree that leaving without a deal will have a negative effect on our economy in the short term, say a year?" Yes
"Do you agree that leaving without a deal will have a negative effect on our economy in the short to mid term, say a decade?" potentially, is there a maybe option?
"Do you agree that leaving without a deal will have a negative effect on our economy in the long term, past a decade?" No.
Of course it is hard to equate where we would be in the EU so it is nigh on impossible to assess (even once we've been out a decade) whether we are behind or ahead. Lots of outside influences. Forecasting is very hit and miss. Even the IMF have just (yesterday/today) revised their doom and gloom forecasts for us where we were lagging behind Germany, to now say they expect us to be ahead of Germany in 2019, maybe they have given up trying to say we are doomed seeing as they have forecasted now for us to be ahead of Germany in 2020 as well.
Of course we do have to take into account that this magical change in stance assumes we get a deal......which, if I were a conspiracy theorist, might appear to be a political forecast judging by its timing!
Last edited:
The key with that section is that remain polling is pretty consistent no matter the question. However the leave side lends some support when it is phrased in a way that suggests the vote is on which way to leave rather than remain being an option. If you look at that table the column that shows whether "specifies remain is an option" they are all at the bottom and key is that the "all voters" column turns negative.
Which is why they rebranded it as a "people's vote" and why they are so vague on what the options would be. The polling at this point doesn't show any support for another referendum because no-one is being open about what the questions would be.
Which begs the question, seeing as you are unable to predict an upside to leaving, why are we putting ourselves through this trauma? Just something to do? Were you and all the other Brexit voters bored?
The irrelevant part is the remain section they support remaining. Certainly isn't key.
The relevant part as the entire writeup and question shows is that leave votes will give enough support to a vote if it gives them a choice on the outcome rather than it being a repeat of the original. All of the ones you are mentioning specify a dual outcome that doesn't give leavers a decision on the final deal. But the public do support a peoples vote if it does, even if it includes remain.
Edit: The majority are only against a people's vote if it the question rules one of the favoured leave options, is the main thing to draw from that.
Last edited:
A interesting view on Brexit, from December.
You must log in or register to see media
It isn't just the wording referendum. None of those calling it a "people's vote" specify that remain would be an option. That is where they gain (some) support from leavers. All of the ones that specify remain will be an option are at the bottom. So you are interpreting it as purely being what they call the vote, however I am also taking into account that specifying that remain will be an option is a big (if not bigger) player.
It is a pity that some of the people's vote surveys did not specify remain would be an option, and some of the "referendum" surveys didn't so that we could then see a bit more of a pointer on this one.
Language plays a part yes, but if you voted leave and are asked about a second vote on the deal/how to leave then of course you are much more likely to (reluctantly) say OK.
Can you predict what will happen next year? Even with the EU? Should we as people just watch the telly and believe whatever those in power and with influence tell us? And at that point are we supposed to ignore certain people yet take others words as gospel?
Of course it was not because I was bored. I don't buy the whole concept of the EU. It is (to me) just a big setup to shift money between all the big boys. A nice cosy club for those who are fortunate. We've gone through this before. We could keep on repeating this stuff.
This article conveys what I mean better than my rants and ravings. This line in particular:
"Just like the original vote to Leave, the strength of the ‘no deal’ story is not its facts but its feelings, not its statistics but its sentiments."
Although it does fall into the typical remainer "dreaming of the past" BS that is way off the mark and is written by someone belittling the whole argument which won't help especially as it starts off trying to present some semblance of trying to understand.
https://www.redpepper.org.uk/dreams-of-a-no-deal-nation/
"Just like the original vote to Leave, the strength of the ‘no deal’ story is not its facts but its feelings, not its statistics but its sentiments."
Although it does fall into the typical remainer "dreaming of the past" BS that is way off the mark and is written by someone belittling the whole argument which won't help especially as it starts off trying to present some semblance of trying to understand.
https://www.redpepper.org.uk/dreams-of-a-no-deal-nation/
I think people who are obsessed with politics are probably evil and should try growing vegetables instead (although I'm not sure that the concept of evil is a reality)
Last year I bought a packet of Swede seeds. The front of the packet clearly stated very easy to grow. None grew.
After 2 months of snow and reading Imps posts every day I slightly worry about my sanity