Off Topic Politics Thread

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----HistoryRepeating---- said:
The DUP have to look after their own people first. I can't blame them for that.
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The DUP, SNP, Tories, Labour, Lib Dems and all the rest have no thoughts about "caring for their own people first." Unless you mean caring about themselves and their cronies.

If it were all about caring about the people then we wouldn;t have had the last 2 years of politicians trying to work out how not to fulfill the result of the referendum yet sell it to the public as fulfilling the result. "looking after people first" is the last thing on the majority of politician's priority lists.

It is all about trying to do as little as possible while making it look like you have done loads.... and anybody who has worked in large companies knows that people like that nearly always manage somehow to fast-track up the ladder while their colleagues that actually do most of the work mutter under their breath.

The BS of "office politics" was one of the reason I ended up leaving "ambitious" office based jobs to work on the shop floor in an egg packing factory. It is one of the reasons I enjoyed that job more than the office jobs too. Just normal folks, no-one thinking they were above each other, getting on with the job and each other.

Offices can be awful places to work with all the egos fighting against each other in the name of "ambition." And politics is just the pinnacle of that kind of attitude and quite likely why they do not understand what normal folks actually think. Those big ego blaggers in the office are oblivious to how their colleagues see them either.
 
ImpSaint said:
The DUP, SNP, Tories, Labour, Lib Dems and all the rest have no thoughts about "caring for their own people first." Unless you mean caring about themselves and their cronies.

If it were all about caring about the people then we wouldn;t have had the last 2 years of politicians trying to work out how not to fulfill the result of the referendum yet sell it to the public as fulfilling the result. "looking after people first" is the last thing on the majority of politician's priority lists.

It is all about trying to do as little as possible while making it look like you have done loads.... and anybody who has worked in large companies knows that people like that nearly always manage somehow to fast-track up the ladder while their colleagues that actually do most of the work mutter under their breath.

The BS of "office politics" was one of the reason I ended up leaving "ambitious" office based jobs to work on the shop floor in an egg packing factory. It is one of the reasons I enjoyed that job more than the office jobs too. Just normal folks, no-one thinking they were above each other, getting on with the job and each other.

Offices can be awful places to work with all the egos fighting against each other in the name of "ambition." And politics is just the pinnacle of that kind of attitude and quite likely why they do not understand what normal folks actually think. Those big ego blaggers in the office are oblivious to how their colleagues see them either.
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I think most MP’s, like I do, find it impossible to reconcile “looking after people first” with the fact that Brexit in any form is in no way in those people’s interests. I’ve never been an apologist for MP’s, but this current Parliament has the hardest job of any in my lifetime. They have to balance the national interest with the grim reality that in many cases they simply disagree with the majority of their own electorate. If they simply wanted to put their own interests first the current debate on the Withdrawal Agreement wouldn’t even be happening, let alone heading for a huge defeat for the government. For the first time in my life I actually feel proud of our political class.
 
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rednright said:
I suspect that there are not many differences between the normal distribution of leave and remain voters. Most of the people I know who voted leave are pretty normal mortgaged etc. I was pro EEC back in the day but have railed against the increasing dominance of Brussels for the last 10 years. We have given up quite a bit to be full eu members and Ive never been convinced by it. The fact that the UK fought desperatly hard to prevent Juncker being elected sums it up. Always felt we have been played by the commission. I believe EU will be in for a rough ride over the next two years as merkel retires and Napoleon (sorry Macron) seeks greater power.

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Macron’s power base in his own country is crumbling, so I don’t think there is any need to worry about him in the years to come.

The whole world is in for a rough ride imo., and we have austerity to thank for that. We’d be better placed to survive it if we had closer, rather than weaker, ties with our nearest neighbours, but that is just my opinion and it appears that I am in a minority of 48%, and therefore completely ignored by our tunnel visioned PM.

But what really fills me with despair is the way Brexit has unearthed and given oxygen to something ugly in the British character; I see an increasingly foul tempered xenophobic nation being misled by a bunch of incompetent con artists, the whole lot draping themselves in the flag of a union that is on the brink of extinction. And we have David Cameron to thank for that.
 
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My hope is that May's deal is rejected and then the House of Commons puts in place measures whereby the UK cannot crash out of the EU. Whilst another referéndum might be one way out, I tend to go along with Ken Clarke that we do not have referéndums ad naseum. The MPs will have to live with their decisions, and be prepared to deal with the vicious attitude of the thugs that will protest because Brexit isn't going ahead. The pólice will have a very important job to protect the likes of Anna Soubry, Chucka and few other high profile politicians in the wake of the vote.
 
Very interesting thread on how May wanted to ignore the result of the Welsh independence referendum. Who'd have thought you might want a second referendum over the will of the people?

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Vin
 
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Onionman said:
Very interesting thread on how May wanted to ignore the result of the Welsh independence referendum. Who'd have thought you might want a second referendum over the will of the people?

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Vin
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Liz Saville Roberts of Plaid Cymru has just raised that very point in the HoC. May dismissed it with contempt.
 
The Ides of March said:
My hope is that May's deal is rejected and then the House of Commons puts in place measures whereby the UK cannot crash out of the EU. Whilst another referéndum might be one way out, I tend to go along with Ken Clarke that we do not have referéndums ad naseum. The MPs will have to live with their decisions, and be prepared to deal with the vicious attitude of the thugs that will protest because Brexit isn't going ahead. The pólice will have a very important job to protect the likes of Anna Soubry, Chucka and few other high profile politicians in the wake of the vote.
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There may well be a destructive reaction from the right wing element unfortunately but more importantly will be the reaction of the 17.4 million who can see that their votes have been betrayed. This will change UK politics fundamentally and I believe will result in a new party being formed drawing both Tory and labour voters. Probably not now but this will make an election 5+ years from now interesting. Yes, i would protest if my vote is recinded but peacefully mind.
 
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Archers Road said:
Macron’s power base in his own country is crumbling, so I don’t think there is any need to worry about him in the years to come.

The whole world is in for a rough ride imo., and we have austerity to thank for that. We’d be better placed to survive it if we had closer, rather than weaker, ties with our nearest neighbours, but that is just my opinion and it appears that I am in a minority of 48%, and therefore completely ignored by our tunnel visioned PM.

But what really fills me with despair is the way Brexit has unearthed and given oxygen to something ugly in the British character; I see an increasingly foul tempered xenophobic nation being misled by a bunch of incompetent con artists, the whole lot draping themselves in the flag of a union that is on the brink of extinction. And we have David Cameron to thank for that.
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You make some really good points though I partially disagree with you on DC. Yes, he did promise and set up the referendum, but if he hadn’t, he would have been replaced as it appeared to many in the Conservative Party that UKIP would grab a huge chunk of their vote at the 2015 election. We now know that was an incorrect assumption, but hindsight is not a luxury to predict the future. Whatever happens in the next few weeks, the desire to leave the EU, will not be expunged and even if the original vote is denied it’s goal now, the campaign will go on. But I agree totally that reasonable argument has been replaced especially on the mass media by a terrible anger and abuse and somehow we need to find a better way of settling such serious issues.
 
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Liz Saville Roberts has just raised a point of order that the Prime Minister misled the House over her record on the Welsh referendum.
 
rednright said:
There may well be a destructive reaction from the right wing element unfortunately but more importantly will be the reaction of the 17.4 million who can see that their votes have been betrayed. This will change UK politics fundamentally and I believe will result in a new party being formed drawing both Tory and labour voters. Probably not now but this will make an election 5+ years from now interesting. Yes, i would protest if my vote is recinded but peacefully mind.
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The evidence is that it's no longer 17.4 million people. According to opinion polls, many leave voters have changed their minds (numbers vary but it's been significant). Many reasons, including the fact that they have realised that what they were promised was impossible and exaggerated. Some Leave voters have noticed that Turkey *wasn't* imminently going to join the EU. Immigration has slid down the list of priorities as the surge of refugees from Syria dies down. In addition, freedom of movement is being seen a little less as a blight on the country and instead is being seen as the source of a huge chunk of the labour force (particularly the NHS) as well as a great opportunity for our kids.

However, there *will* be people who feel betrayed. I do feel that if Brexit is stopped, then we need governments in future to be prepared to enter properly into Europe, to encourage people to see our membership of the EU as a huge benefit to our country and, hopefully, to wind down the Fortress Great Britain rhetoric that leaves us seeing the EU as an enemy rather than as something (as I see it) from which we hugely gain.

I think we could start with lessons on the curriculum about how our and the EU's governance works - there's a huge pile of disinformation out there about "unelected bureaucrats". It's nonsense and should be seen as such.

In short, I think if we stay we need to stay as a committed member rather than what our press desires.

Like you I think there'll potentially be a break from current parties but I may differ in thinking it may be a pro-Europe party of the centre (where the LibDems would have been if they had been ten years later to the big time)

Vin
 
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Onionman said:
The evidence is that it's no longer 17.4 million people. According to opinion polls, many leave voters have changed their minds (numbers vary but it's been significant). Many reasons, including the fact that they have realised that what they were promised was impossible and exaggerated. Some Leave voters have noticed that Turkey *wasn't* imminently going to join the EU. Immigration has slid down the list of priorities as the surge of refugees from Syria dies down. In addition, freedom of movement is being seen a little less as a blight on the country and instead is being seen as the source of a huge chunk of the labour force (particularly the NHS) as well as a great opportunity for our kids.

However, there *will* be people who feel betrayed. I do feel that if Brexit is stopped, then we need governments in future to be prepared to enter properly into Europe, to encourage people to see our membership of the EU as a huge benefit to our country and, hopefully, to wind down the Fortress Great Britain rhetoric that leaves us seeing the EU as an enemy rather than as something (as I see it) from which we hugely gain.

I think we could start with lessons on the curriculum about how our and the EU's governance works - there's a huge pile of disinformation out there about "unelected bureaucrats". It's nonsense and should be seen as such.

In short, I think if we stay we need to stay as a committed member rather than what our press desires.

Like you I think there'll potentially be a break from current parties but I may differ in thinking it may be a pro-Europe party of the centre (where the LibDems would have been if they had been ten years later to the big time)

Vin
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All fair points and certainly the political map may change to pro and anti eu parties forming. Not a fan of opinion polls - who do they ask? I remember when paddy ashdown (good man rest his soul) famously predicted to eat his hat based on opinion polls and exit polls advising the Lib dems would do well but they were nearly wiped out. Remain could well-win another Ref or it could be incredibly tight again so we would be in the same position. I know plenty of remainers who consistently tell me that the result was 50/50 so would be interesting if the boot is on the other foot. For me leaving the EU is more a political position than econom
 
rednright said:
All fair points and certainly the political map may change to pro and anti eu parties forming. Not a fan of opinion polls - who do they ask? I remember when paddy ashdown (good man rest his soul) famously predicted to eat his hat based on opinion polls and exit polls advising the Lib dems would do well but they were nearly wiped out. Remain could well-win another Ref or it could be incredibly tight again so we would be in the same position. I know plenty of remainers who consistently tell me that the result was 50/50 so would be interesting if the boot is on the other foot. For me leaving the EU is more a political position than econom
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It depends how the referendum is done. I still think it will be very close if we just have the ambiguous yes or no but I think it will be far more in remain's favour of you actually define what leave means by choosing between no deal and mays deal first.
 
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