Off Topic Politics Thread

[Puck]

One definition of atheism is "lack of belief in the existence of god or gods". That's where I sit. No evidence, so I don't believe it. I also have a lack of belief in fairies, leprechauns or alien abductions. No evidence, so I don't believe them. The onus of proof lies with the one making the claim.

That's fair enough. Although your talk of "invisible friends" suggests rather stronger feelings on the matter. I would consider you an agnostic though. There's little point to using one term that covers two distinctly different positions. I also suspect you mean proof rather than evidence because there's plenty of evidence for the existence of God. Just immediately I can cite the Gospels, with their descriptions of miracles performed by a man claiming to be the son of God, as evidence for the existence of God. They're not conclusive evidence, they're not proof - and many people will take the view that they're not very strong evidence - but they are unquestionably evidence. There have been many others arguments made over the years for the existence of God as well. So I don't think you can say there is no evidence.

A discussion of morality would be huge but I would suggest that relying on religions* (believed to be over 10,000 currently) to come up with a common morality would be rather hopeful, to say the least. Secular morality could be summed up as "create a world you'd want to live in regardless of how the dice fall on who you are when you're born" would have much more commonality in my opinion.

Vin

*To clarify the scope of the problem, at least one religion specifically condones slavery.

Religions are unquestionably flawed. They're run by humans and humans are flawed. Religions can be and are abused. I've seen the argument that the decision of the Church of England to support WW1 and encourage men to volunteer to fight is a major reason why Christianity began to decline in this country.

Secularism is rather different to atheism. The fact remains that the few countries where the state has been atheist have on the whole been unpleasant and oppressive so I'm not sure the eradication of religious belief would be a good thing. I also think "create a world you'd want to live in regardless of how the dice fall on who you are when you're born" is a pretty vague statement. Most people, religious or not, would agree with that statement. That's where the agreement would end though - from there on everyone has their own idea what that world looks like and how you would achieve it.

 

[Puck]

Moving away from religion (yep I know I am as guilty for the topic) and back onto politics (lol, in the 'real world' two conversations you try not to have at a dinner party), who can believe what Donald Trump is up to now?

His order gets overturned but he tweets that he will get it changed again and he warned that "many very bad and dangerous people may be pouring into our country". This is the hatred he is trying to drum up. I cannot see how the president of the USA can openly try to drum up so much hatred. American people what have you done electing this idiot to lead you?

He was always likely to do this. He's defending his policy.

I suspect this will go all the way to the Supreme Court. If they find against him then it'll be interesting to see how he reacts.

 

[The Ides of March]

I have mentioned on more than one occasion I am sure on here that I am a full blown Atheist.

I was brought up a Catholic, went to catholic school, was an altar boy at church, took first communion, was confirmed, went to mass twice a week (once on a wednesday at school in the chapel) and once on a Sunday.

What changed? Well the total indoctrination led me to seek answers outside of the church. I am also very much into the sciences and Astronomy. Once I studied the outer solar system and the universe as a whole, I came to realise that as the late great Carl Sagan said, we are just a pale blue dot in an insignificant part of the solar system, revolving around an ordinary star in an insignificant part of the vast universe. (Again, to me), we evolved through luck, fortune and science, not some super human conceptual being who put us here.

There lies the issue I have with religion. (To me), all religions are based on human ideas, and there is no real proof. Science deals in absolutes. Religion preys (excuse the pun) on peoples' insecurities and the wanting to live on. I sat back, thought about it and realised there is one thing that humans must live by. One thing my Catholic upbringing taught me. The Ten Commandments. I have adapted them for an Atheist, but even I can see their intention is there and all that is needed to get on with others in the world around and be a nice person:

1. “I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt not have any strange gods before Me.”
- Believe in yourself and what you are doing. Don't worship anything, you are in control of your destiny. You are the 'god'.
2. “Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.”
- Don't mock others for their views on religion. Don't mock others for their views. If if makes someone happier, let them believe. You don't have to agree with all people to get on with life, but can respectfully disagree.
3. “Remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.”
- Take one day a week out to recharge yourself, eat healthy, and actually realise how great it is to be alive.




Me too! Brought up a Catholic. The indoctrination is quite subtle. However, as time has passed my own belief system has evolved that will mirror no one else's.










4. “Honor thy father and mother.”
5. “Thou shalt not kill.”
6. “Thou shalt not commit adultery.”
7. “Thou shalt not steal.”
8. “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.”
9. “Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife.”
10. “Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s goods.”

The only ones I have to justify as an Atheist are 1, 2 & 3. Live by the above and you will have a good life and people may actually like you.

Now in my view ALL of the bad in the word is actually caused by religion and people's differing views on it. Yep everyone is entitled to a view, and my view isn't necessarily right, but it isn't necessarily wrong either. It's my view.

The biggest issue I have at the moment with Trump is that he is bringing together even more than before State and Religion. This causes divisions. I appreciate that like the UK, the US is a largely a 'Christian' country, BUT people from all faiths make up the country and make up the our planet. You don't lose your culture by letting in another religion. The State and Religion should be separate in my opinion.

I call myself a Catholic Atheist. I am Catholic in culture and Atheist in beliefs.

I don't expect everyone to agree with me and I know I will be at the total other end of the scale to some. My Daughter has married an American of Cuban parents. His mother is as Catholic as the Pope. She knows I was brought up Catholic, and as she puts it "have lost my way with god". I don't argue with her, I let her know that I don't believe, but don't strike her down for her beliefs. She has recently gone through cancer and she said her faith helped her through it. Every other post from her on FaceBook is God related. Out of respect to her I limit my religious views on FaceBook. What I am trying to say is life is full of opinions. respect others and we all get on (see points 1-10 above).

Phew, longest post by me for ever. Not a preach, but a viewpoint.

 

[benditlikeabanana]

Why do atheists feel the need to bang on about god and religion all the time?

For me its simple, most of the worlds problems can be laid at the door of religion, what one person does wrong to another person in the name of something that they have faith exists but have no proof it exists is pretty dumb to alot of people, most atheists would support your right to believe in something though

 

[Archers Road]

For me its simple, most of the worlds problems can be laid at the door of religion, what one person does wrong to another person in the name of something that they have faith exists but have no proof it exists is pretty dumb to alot of people, most atheists would support your right to believe in something though

Support, maybe. Respect, clearly not.

 

[Beef]

Support, maybe. Respect, clearly not.

You are doing the same you claim atheist do.

 

[SaintinSerbia]

headlines tomorrow "Jesus scores twice!"

yet more problems - where will it end?

 

[Schrodinger's Cat]

Support, maybe. Respect, clearly not.

Absolutely. I would certainly support a religious person's right to believe in a God or gods of their choice, but that doesnt mean I respect what they think - I think its all a bit silly to be honest so not a lot of respect due. Equally if someone firmly believes in fairies, then I wouldn't dream of trying to stop them doing so, but wouldn't give the idea any credence or respect the concept on the basis that belief is based on faith, which is backed up by nothing.
There is no evidence and certainly no proof of the existence of any gods. Religious writings offer no evidence of a God's existence as it was definitely a human who composed the words and wrote them down.
As I said, people can believe what they like, but don't try to justify it to me, and certainly don't try to make me believe, or threaten me if I don't believe because faith without proof is just a preposterous concept to anybody of a logical turn of mind.
So very much support, but not respect because it seems a silly idea that doesn't deserve respect, merely tolerance

 

[SaintinSerbia]

sorry, I probably started this off by objecting to something I thought was anti-Muslim. That was because it would be another reason for a religion versus religion argument. Atheists do not bang on about religion all the time - only when religion has caused another 100,000 deaths that year for no reason whatsoever! Atheists have to stand by as their countries leaders go to war quoting their God is on their side. It's sickening. Atheists can see what the good qualities required to be a decent person are without being connected with a religion. Religions were a perfect way for rulers to control those unruly peasants (and get a bit of cash). All religions have eventually died out, like all empires, because they are manufactured. Go back 3000 years, no Christians and no Muslims. Fast forward - there will be something else - unless the human race starts to believe that maybe we control our futures?

 

[Archers Road]

You are doing the same you claim atheist do.

Am I?

Seems like quite a few protracted rants, and lots of judgmentalism, from atheists on this thread, but very little of that from people of faith. Which kind of confirms my original point, that atheists are often every bit as obsessive and opinionated as the most fanatically devout.

 

[Beef]

Am I?

Seems like quite a few protracted rants, and lots of judgmentalism, from atheists on this thread, but very little of that from people of faith. Which kind of confirms my original point, that atheists are often every bit as obsessive and opinionated as the most fanatically devout.

Hardly any people in this thread tbf. So about 5 people max? Hardly a margin to base most atheists on. I only have one person I know who deems themself religious. We never talk down about religion, we only talk about how some use religion to spread hate now and again.

 

[benditlikeabanana]

I live here in Colombia, 98% of the population support a faith- the vast majority being Catholics. I am a atheist, my Colombian wife is a Catholic and it is an important part of her being (thankfully she does not believe in creation). We have two young children and they go to a school that my wife picked run by Dominican monks, I was somewhat hesitant to start with but it has a good rep.
Pretty sure the time will come when my kids notice that I do not take part in the night time prayer, or when i do go to church with them why i do not take part in the ceremony there. I do not belittle the teachings of my wife and treat stories like Noahs Ark as just a nice story for kids.
When my kids ask me what I believe I will explain evolution to them and what i think about religion.
Until then my kids will carry on learning from the Catholic faith, and when they are old enough they can make their own mind up

 

[SaintinSerbia]

Am I?

Seems like quite a few protracted rants, and lots of judgmentalism, from atheists on this thread, but very little of that from people of faith. Which kind of confirms my original point, that atheists are often every bit as obsessive and opinionated as the most fanatically devout.

the reason there aren't any replies from people of faith is because there aren't any. Church of England says only 1% of UK population goes to church. You might find a bigger percentage on a football forum because they rely on blind faith every weekend!

 

[Archers Road]

the reason there aren't any replies from people of faith is because there aren't any. Church of England says only 1% of UK population goes to church. You might find a bigger percentage on a football forum because they rely on blind faith every weekend!

Indeed. We're all Saints fans on this board, I assumed we must all be accustomed to praying for miracles.

 

[SaintinSerbia]

I live here in Colombia, 98% of the population support a faith- the vast majority being Catholics. I am a atheist, my Colombian wife is a Catholic and it is an important part of her being (thankfully she does not believe in creation). We have two young children and they go to a school that my wife picked run by Dominican monks, I was somewhat hesitant to start with but it has a good rep.
Pretty sure the time will come when my kids notice that I do not take part in the night time prayer, or when i do go to church with them why i do not take part in the ceremony there. I do not belittle the teachings of my wife and treat stories like Noahs Ark as just a nice story for kids.
When my kids ask me what I believe I will explain evolution to them and what i think about religion.
Until then my kids will carry on learning from the Catholic faith, and when they are old enough they can make their own mind up

That's ridiculous - if you lived in Iran with a Muslim wife you'd have brought your kids up in the Islamic faith, in India as maybe a Buddhist, in Serbia as an orthodox Christian? Why wait until they are indoctrinated before you tell them you don't actually believe what they've been taught?

 

[The Ides of March]

Absolutely. I would certainly support a religious person's right to believe in a God or gods of their choice, but that doesnt mean I respect what they think - I think its all a bit silly to be honest so not a lot of respect due. Equally if someone firmly believes in fairies, then I wouldn't dream of trying to stop them doing so, but wouldn't give the idea any credence or respect the concept on the basis that belief is based on faith, which is backed up by nothing.
There is no evidence and certainly no proof of the existence of any gods. Religious writings offer no evidence of a God's existence as it was definitely a human who composed the words and wrote them down.
As I said, people can believe what they like, but don't try to justify it to me, and certainly don't try to make me believe, or threaten me if I don't believe because faith without proof is just a preposterous concept to anybody of a logical turn of mind.
So very much support, but not respect because it seems a silly idea that doesn't deserve respect, merely tolerance

Yes there is!! Didn't Zeus often come down to Earth to impregnate women? It is the stuff of legends!!

 

[The Ides of March]

I remember going to see Southampton v Peterborough in the Championship promotion season. It was November 1st, wit the following day being November 2nd or All Souls Day. The players were lined up on the pitch when the announer asked for a minute's silence so that the crowd could remember their loved ones. If I recall it was due to the club's connection with the neighbouring St Mary's Church out of which Southampton were fashioned.

 

[ImpSaint]

That's ridiculous - if you lived in Iran with a Muslim wife you'd have brought your kids up in the Islamic faith, in India as maybe a Buddhist, in Serbia as an orthodox Christian? Why wait until they are indoctrinated before you tell them you don't actually believe what they've been taught?

My kid's catholic school goes along with the Santa myth. Both my boys (10 and 11) don't believe in Santa anymore and it wasn't the school or us telling them he didn't exist. They just "came of age" on that one and while neither asks me about my (non) beliefs in God when they obviously are taught that he does exist at school (my eldest is now in a normal non faith secondary school) they will most likely "come of age" on that one too like I did in my early teens.

It is a bit hard to believe that kids can be indoctrinated unless they are not taught science IMO and I don't really understand how so many people of all sorts of religions can believe in this day and age but it is their choice (or they maybe think it is not a choice but something that is not a choice) and I respect their choice.no choice to follow a religion. I don't believe any of it but it is up to them and if someone of whatever religion wants to say prayers before we eat then that isn't a problem to me.

If someone objected to my wife or children being at the same dinner table then that would bother me.

 

[SaintinSerbia]

My kid's catholic school goes along with the Santa myth. Both my boys (10 and 11) don;t believe in Santa anymore and it wasn't the school or us telling them he didn;t exist. They just "came of age" on that one and while neither asks me about my beliefs in God when they obviously are taught that he does exist at school (my eldest is now in a normal non faith secondary school) they will most likely "come of age" on that one too like I did in my early teens.

It is a bit hard to believe that kids can be indoctrinated unless they are not taught science IMO and I don't really understand how so many people of all sorts of religions can believe in this day and age but it is their choice (or they maybe think it is not a choice but something that is not a choice) and I respect their choice.no choice to follow a religion. I don't believe any of it but it is up to them and if someone of whatever religion wants to say prayers before we eat then that isn't a problem to me.

If someone objected to my wife or children being at the same dinner table then that would bother me.

You don't think it's wrong that children are taught a load of lies and have to work out later in life that they were lies? How are they then expected to believe anything they are taught? This isn't the difference between what Disney tells them and the truth it's what responsible adults tell them and the truth. Responsible adults tell their children the difference between stories and the truth!

 

[The Ides of March]

Is there a difference in being indoctrinated into a religion and into a country's institutions. Thou shall do homage to the armed forces, Thou shall not say bad things about the Royal Family. Indoctrination has many facets and faces, some more subtle than others. Christmas is probably the biggest indoctrination of all when lots of people go crazy shopping for presents, sending cards. It is not done in Spain like the extent it is in the UK. I got one card, via email this year and sent none!! Had a great time with my friend in Ibiza and Formentera. And as we are not an item, there is no pressure!!