Off Topic Politics Thread

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Why are shia groups in Iran, Syria, Lebanon and Yemen all be helping one another? They have no tribal affiliation, just religion. Why are sunnis in Saudi funding madrassas in Indonesia? Nothing in common but religion.


The role of religion in the right wing of the USA is almost boundless. Trump is working to give more freedom for churches openly to support politicians by changing the charity rules. That alone is proof that they are intertwined.


I'd prefer a PM who said she based policy on reason and fact rather than on what she hears in her head as responses to questions asked of a supernatural being for which there is no evidence. Compassion and tolerance are not the property of people with religion and it would be awful to suggest they were.


As for Adolf Hitler, it's odd how Christians love bringing him up to disown him. Here's an example of his "Atheism". Speech delivered April 12, 1922 published in "My New Order":

"My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Saviour as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter.

In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison.

Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross.

As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice ...

And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only for their wages wretchedness and misery.

When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people are plundered and exploited."


Hitler wrote in Mein Kampf: "... I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews. I am doing the Lord's work." In power, he quoted the same words in a Reichstag speech in 1938.

Three years later he informed General Gerhart Engel: "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so."

Plus, on a personal level, the catholic church claims me as one of theirs in their numbers on catholics in the UK. They do it because I was baptised catholic. If they get me, they also get Hitler on exactly the same basis.


Vin

I would still argue that the conflicts you mention in the Middle East are tribal, not religious. I don't deny that the parties involved co-opt and distort religious affiliations to add fuel to the fire. This is similar in principle to the IRA funding drives in Boston and New York throughout the 70's and 80's, where perceived tribal affiliations meant anyone with an Irish surname could be conned into funding a conflict they had no comprehension of. Religion played no direct part in the creation of that conflict either.

As for the religious right in America, I would argue that they are neither religious nor right. Christians with guns? That level of ignorance of Christian scripture pretty much disbars them from all credibility imo. They're just thick ****ing racists looking for any old mast to pin their colours to.

I don't think the Catholic church has any claim on, or responsibility for, either you or Hitler, despite what either of you say. I'll bet you rattle off a Hail Mary on your death bed though; not sure Hitler would have done that, especially with suicide being a mortal sin.
 
As for the religious right in America, I would argue that they are neither religious nor right. Christians with guns? That level of ignorance of Christian scripture pretty much disbars them from all credibility imo. They're just thick ****ing racists looking for any old mast to pin their colours to.

100% ^^^^

Not disregarding the rest of your post, but this to me is the point in the US. They are using Religion to try to justify their actions.
 
I'm right there with you, Vin. Religion is the source of almost every conflict since time immemorial. I have no issue with whatever people wish to believe as long as they A) keep their views to themselves and B) don't try to foist their beliefs or way of life on other people.

Money and power is the source of almost every conflict since time immemorial.

Of course, if leaders could persuade their superstitious followers that god was on their side, that might make them more willing to fight than they would otherwise have been. But to say that religion is at the root of most or even many historical conflicts is a misreading of history.
 
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Money and power is the source of almost every conflict since time immemorial.

Of course, if leaders could persuade their superstitious followers that god was on their side, that might make them more willing to fight than they would otherwise have been. But to say that religion is at the root of most or even many historical conflicts is a misreading of history.

Again pretty much bang on. I would argue though that that also means that Religion is the source of the conflict as the leaders have persuaded others, using religion that their fight is just. BUT, as you say, money and power is the crux of the matter. It turns normal people corrupt. I will mention that the Vatican isnt short of a bob or two, and is allegedly quite corrupt...
 
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...I'll bet you rattle off a Hail Mary on your death bed...

That's pretty unpleasant as it suggests that I don't mean what I say. Not a very compassionate or tolerant thing to say at all. As you've decided to make it personal, I'll make this my last post to you on the subject.

I'm rational. I have no fear whatsoever of death. If I die today, I expect that 2018 will be to me like 1066 was. Nothing. 1066 wasn't an unpleasant experience for me at all. My molecules will be recycled and I'll know nothing about it.

However, if I do end up in front of your God, I'll just say "Sorry, bucko, but you made me intellectually honest. Add into that the fact that you didn't give us one single jot or iota of evidence that you existed and the result is, well, why on earth would I believe in you?". You might want to prepare something similar in case you wind up in front of Shiva after you die. You see, faith leads literally hundreds of millions of people to believe in Shiva so you may be wrong in your choice of invisible friend. Be prepared.

Vin
 
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Again pretty much bang on. I would argue though that that also means that Religion is the source of the conflict as the leaders have persuaded others, using religion that their fight is just. BUT, as you say, money and power is the crux of the matter. It turns normal people corrupt. I will mention though that the Vatican isnt short of a bob or two, and is allegedly quite corrupt...


Yeah, the Catholic Church is probably no great advertisment for Christianity in action <laugh>

I don't deny that religious people the world over constantly and consistently fall short of their own ideals and principles. This is because they are human, and therefore fallible. However, when atheists get all holier-than-thou, which they often do, and start damning religion as the root of all evil, I feel inclined to challenge their judgementalism. Most of the time I keep my beliefs - such as they are - to myself.
 
That's pretty unpleasant as it suggests that I don't mean what I say. Not a very compassionate or tolerant thing to say at all. As you've decided to make it personal, I'll make this my last post to you on the subject.

I'm rational. I have no fear whatsoever of death. If I die today, I expect that 2018 will be to me like 1066 was. Nothing. 1066 wasn't an unpleasant experience for me at all. My molecules will be recycled and I'll know nothing about it.

However, if I do end up in front of your God, I'll just say "Sorry, bucko, but you made me intellectually honest. Add into that the fact that you didn't give us one single jot or iota of evidence that you existed and the result is, well, why on earth would I believe in you?". You might want to prepare something similar in case you wind up in front of Shiva after you die. You see, faith leads literally hundreds of millions of people to believe in Shiva so you may be wrong in your choice of invisible friend. Be prepared.

Vin


That line was a joke.

I hope god has a better sense of humour than you do, or else quite frankly we are all ****ed.

That's a joke as well, btw, please do not take offence. I know how easily atheists do that!
 
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Yeah, the Catholic Church is probably no great advertisment for Christianity in action <laugh>

I don't deny that religious people the world over constantly and consistently fall short of their own ideals and principles. This is because they are human, and therefore fallible. However, when atheists get all holier-than-thou, which they often do, and start damning religion as the root of all evil, I feel inclined to challenge their judgementalism. Most of the time I keep my beliefs - such as they are - to myself.

Fair point. I think you will find that most Atheists will try not to do this, as it is actually a self defeating argument from them. I do find it tough personally not to see the roots of causes in religion though, BUT that is because of my non religion views. I try not to judge people for what they believe in, but really for how they are as people.

EDIT: If there was no religion in the world, we would still have conflicts, and as you said it would all be about power and money then.
 
...

What changed? Well the total indoctrination led me to seek answers outside of the church. I am also very much into the sciences and Astronomy. Once I studied the outer solar system and the universe as a whole, I came to realise that as the late great Carl Sagan said, we are just a pale blue dot in an insignificant part of the solar system, revolving around an ordinary star in an insignificant part of the vast universe. (Again, to me), we evolved through luck, fortune and science, not some super human conceptual being who put us here.

There lies the issue I have with religion. (To me), all religions are based on human ideas, and there is no real proof. Science deals in absolutes. Religion preys (excuse the pun) on peoples' insecurities and the wanting to live on. I sat back, thought about it and realised there is one thing that humans must live by. One thing my Catholic upbringing taught me. The Ten Commandments. I have adapted them for an Atheist, but even I can see their intention is there and all that is needed to get on with others in the world around and be a nice person:

1. “I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt not have any strange gods before Me.”
- Believe in yourself and what you are doing. Don't worship anything, you are in control of your destiny. You are the 'god'.
2. “Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.”
- Don't mock others for their views on religion. Don't mock others for their views. If if makes someone happier, let them believe. You don't have to agree with all people to get on with life, but can respectfully disagree.
3. “Remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.”
- Take one day a week out to recharge yourself, eat healthy, and actually realise how great it is to be alive.
4. “Honor thy father and mother.”
5. “Thou shalt not kill.”
6. “Thou shalt not commit adultery.”
7. “Thou shalt not steal.”
8. “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.”
9. “Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife.”
10. “Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s goods.”

The only ones I have to justify as an Atheist are 1, 2 & 3. Live by the above and you will have a good life and people may actually like you.

Now in my view ALL of the bad in the word is actually caused by religion and people's differing views on it. Yep everyone is entitled to a view, and my view isn't necessarily right, but it isn't necessarily wrong either. It's my view.

The biggest issue I have at the moment with Trump is that he is bringing together even more than before State and Religion. This causes divisions. I appreciate that like the UK, the US is a largely a 'Christian' country, BUT people from all faiths make up the country and make up the our planet. You don't lose your culture by letting in another religion. The State and Religion should be separate in my opinion.

I call myself a Catholic Atheist. I am Catholic in culture and Atheist in beliefs.

I don't expect everyone to agree with me and I know I will be at the total other end of the scale to some. My Daughter has married an American of Cuban parents. His mother is as Catholic as the Pope. She knows I was brought up Catholic, and as she puts it "have lost my way with god". I don't argue with her, I let her know that I don't believe, but don't strike her down for her beliefs. She has recently gone through cancer and she said her faith helped her through it. Every other post from her on FaceBook is God related. Out of respect to her I limit my religious views on FaceBook. What I am trying to say is life is full of opinions. respect others and we all get on (see points 1-10 above).

Phew, longest post by me for ever. Not a preach, but a viewpoint.

Always worth reading his essay on that subject. I paste a copy of it inside the cover of my diary every year. It was written about this picture of the Earth taken by Voyager from 4 billion miles away.

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Here's what he wrote:

"From this distant vantage point, the Earth might not seem of any particular interest. But for us, it's different. Consider again that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us.

On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives.

The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every 'superstar,' every 'supreme leader,' every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.

The Earth is a very small stage in a vast cosmic arena. Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors so that in glory and triumph they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot. Think of the endless cruelties visited by the inhabitants of one corner of this pixel on the scarcely distinguishable inhabitants of some other corner.

How frequent their misunderstandings, how eager they are to kill one another, how fervent their hatreds. Our posturings, our imagined self-importance, the delusion that we have some privileged position in the universe, are challenged by this point of pale light.

Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark.
In our obscurity – in all this vastness – there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves.

The Earth is the only world known, so far, to harbor life. There is nowhere else, at least in the near future, to which our species could migrate.

Visit, yes. Settle, not yet. Like it or not, for the moment, the Earth is where we make our stand. It has been said that astronomy is a humbling and character-building experience. There is perhaps no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world.

To me, it underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another and to preserve and cherish the pale blue dot, the only home we've ever known."

Vin
 
That line was a joke.

I hope god has a better sense of humour than you do, or else quite frankly we are all ****ed.

That's a joke as well, btw, please do not take offence. I know how easily atheists do that!

Utterly hilarious.

I love that your apology includes two fresh insults.

Vin
 
Fair point. I think you will find that most Atheists will try not to do this, as it is actually a self defeating argument from them. I do find it tough personally not to see the roots of causes in religion though, BUT that is because of my non religion views. I try not to judge people for what they believe in, but really for how they are as people.

Indeed. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Matthew 7:16 (sorry <laugh>).
 
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Always worth reading his essay on that subject. I paste a copy of it inside the cover of my diary every year. It was written about this picture of the Earth taken by Voyager from 4 billion miles away.

You must log in or register to see images


Here's what he wrote:

"From this distant vantage point, the Earth might not seem of any particular interest. But for us, it's different. Consider again that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us.

On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives.

The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every 'superstar,' every 'supreme leader,' every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.

The Earth is a very small stage in a vast cosmic arena. Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors so that in glory and triumph they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot. Think of the endless cruelties visited by the inhabitants of one corner of this pixel on the scarcely distinguishable inhabitants of some other corner.

How frequent their misunderstandings, how eager they are to kill one another, how fervent their hatreds. Our posturings, our imagined self-importance, the delusion that we have some privileged position in the universe, are challenged by this point of pale light.

Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark.
In our obscurity – in all this vastness – there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves.

The Earth is the only world known, so far, to harbor life. There is nowhere else, at least in the near future, to which our species could migrate.

Visit, yes. Settle, not yet. Like it or not, for the moment, the Earth is where we make our stand. It has been said that astronomy is a humbling and character-building experience. There is perhaps no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world.

To me, it underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another and to preserve and cherish the pale blue dot, the only home we've ever known."

Vin

Two books I would encourage anyone to read. "Cosmos" & "Pale Blue Dot" by Sagan. They literally were life changing to my outlook on life.
 
It never ceases to amaze me how the subjects we are taught to avoid discussing with our friends as youngsters, seem to be most discussed when you are older.
Namely.......Money, religion and politics. However in family life for me, my Dad, brother and sister, were and are very religious as is my other sister to a degree. Another of my brothers like myself were constantly berated because we did not want to discuss or take part in religious services . They would not talk about Money or Politics, but religion was a free for all and the cause of many a disagreement and argument throughout......My younger brother and I would not capitulate and we were to a certain extent ostracised. So much so when the family emigrated to Australia all those years ago. I stayed........Although my younger brother did not have a choice but to go.
Over the years it still is a barrier of sorts, my youngest sister will not talk to me, my other sister still tries to convert me, we do converse on other family matters and see each other regularly. Needless to say I am closest to my younger brother.
All that heartache in the name of religion, even in families........Who the heck invented religion?? As others have said the cause of the most worldly conflicts.
 
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It never ceases to amaze me how the subjects we are taught to avoid discussing with our friends as youngsters, seem to be most discussed when you are older.

This reminds me of when I was in my mid 20s and drove to the south of France in my Triumph Spitfire with a mate. We stayed at a nice campsite in Montpellier and there was an elderly man opposite us in his camper van. After a quick chat we found out he was German. He invited us for a drink that evening. All afternoon, we were joking in true Faulty Towers style "What ever you do, don't mention the war". Guess what, we spent the whole evening discussing the war.....
 
It never ceases to amaze me how the subjects we are taught to avoid discussing with our friends as youngsters, seem to be most discussed when you are older.
Namely.......Money, religion and politics. However in family life for me, my Dad, brother and sister, were and are very religious as is my other sister to a degree. Another of my brothers like myself were constantly berated because we did not want to discuss or take part in religious services . They would not talk about Money or Politics, but religion was a free for all and the cause of many a disagreement and argument throughout......My younger brother and I would not capitulate and we were to a certain extent ostracised. So much so when they emigrated to Australia all those years ago. I stayed........Although my younger brother did not have a choice but to go.
Over the years it still is a barrier of sorts, my youngest sister will not talk to me, my other sister still tries to convert me, we do converse on other family matters and see each other regularly. Needless to say I am closest to my younger brother.
All that heartache in the name of religion, even in families........Who the heck invented religion?? As others have said the cause of the most worldly conflicts.

Should have gone to Oz mate. You might have liked it.

Actually, most of Europe's religious dissenters went the other way - to America. And look what trouble that caused.
 
This reminds me of when I was in my mid 20s and drove to the south of France in my Triumph Spitfire with a mate. We stayed at a nice campsite in Montpellier and there was an elderly man opposite us in his camper van. After a quick chat we found out he was German. He invited us for a drink that evening. All afternoon, we were joking in true Faulty Towers style "What ever you do, don't mention the war". Guess what, we spent the whole evening discussing the war.....

<laugh> Let me guess - he started it?
 
Should have gone to Oz mate. You might have liked it.

Actually, most of Europe's religious dissenters went the other way - to America. And look what trouble that caused.

Have to admit Archers they all did well out there, although I stayed i didn't do so bad for myself either. My sister though reckons that is because she constantly prayed for my soul.......Yea really.......<laugh>
 
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