I would still argue that the conflicts you mention in the Middle East are tribal, not religious. I don't deny that the parties involved co-opt and distort religious affiliations to add fuel to the fire. This is similar in principle to the IRA funding drives in Boston and New York throughout the 70's and 80's, where perceived tribal affiliations meant anyone with an Irish surname could be conned into funding a conflict they had no comprehension of. Religion played no direct part in the creation of that conflict either. As for the religious right in America, I would argue that they are neither religious nor right. Christians with guns? That level of ignorance of Christian scripture pretty much disbars them from all credibility imo. They're just thick ****ing racists looking for any old mast to pin their colours to. I don't think the Catholic church has any claim on, or responsibility for, either you or Hitler, despite what either of you say. I'll bet you rattle off a Hail Mary on your death bed though; not sure Hitler would have done that, especially with suicide being a mortal sin.
100% ^^^^ Not disregarding the rest of your post, but this to me is the point in the US. They are using Religion to try to justify their actions.
Money and power is the source of almost every conflict since time immemorial. Of course, if leaders could persuade their superstitious followers that god was on their side, that might make them more willing to fight than they would otherwise have been. But to say that religion is at the root of most or even many historical conflicts is a misreading of history.
Indeed they are. These people are no more Christian than suicide bombers are Muslim, imo. ie., not at all.
Again pretty much bang on. I would argue though that that also means that Religion is the source of the conflict as the leaders have persuaded others, using religion that their fight is just. BUT, as you say, money and power is the crux of the matter. It turns normal people corrupt. I will mention that the Vatican isnt short of a bob or two, and is allegedly quite corrupt...
That's pretty unpleasant as it suggests that I don't mean what I say. Not a very compassionate or tolerant thing to say at all. As you've decided to make it personal, I'll make this my last post to you on the subject. I'm rational. I have no fear whatsoever of death. If I die today, I expect that 2018 will be to me like 1066 was. Nothing. 1066 wasn't an unpleasant experience for me at all. My molecules will be recycled and I'll know nothing about it. However, if I do end up in front of your God, I'll just say "Sorry, bucko, but you made me intellectually honest. Add into that the fact that you didn't give us one single jot or iota of evidence that you existed and the result is, well, why on earth would I believe in you?". You might want to prepare something similar in case you wind up in front of Shiva after you die. You see, faith leads literally hundreds of millions of people to believe in Shiva so you may be wrong in your choice of invisible friend. Be prepared. Vin
Yeah, the Catholic Church is probably no great advertisment for Christianity in action I don't deny that religious people the world over constantly and consistently fall short of their own ideals and principles. This is because they are human, and therefore fallible. However, when atheists get all holier-than-thou, which they often do, and start damning religion as the root of all evil, I feel inclined to challenge their judgementalism. Most of the time I keep my beliefs - such as they are - to myself.
That line was a joke. I hope god has a better sense of humour than you do, or else quite frankly we are all ****ed. That's a joke as well, btw, please do not take offence. I know how easily atheists do that!
Fair point. I think you will find that most Atheists will try not to do this, as it is actually a self defeating argument from them. I do find it tough personally not to see the roots of causes in religion though, BUT that is because of my non religion views. I try not to judge people for what they believe in, but really for how they are as people. EDIT: If there was no religion in the world, we would still have conflicts, and as you said it would all be about power and money then.
Always worth reading his essay on that subject. I paste a copy of it inside the cover of my diary every year. It was written about this picture of the Earth taken by Voyager from 4 billion miles away. please log in to view this image Here's what he wrote: "From this distant vantage point, the Earth might not seem of any particular interest. But for us, it's different. Consider again that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every 'superstar,' every 'supreme leader,' every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam. The Earth is a very small stage in a vast cosmic arena. Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors so that in glory and triumph they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot. Think of the endless cruelties visited by the inhabitants of one corner of this pixel on the scarcely distinguishable inhabitants of some other corner. How frequent their misunderstandings, how eager they are to kill one another, how fervent their hatreds. Our posturings, our imagined self-importance, the delusion that we have some privileged position in the universe, are challenged by this point of pale light. Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark. In our obscurity – in all this vastness – there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves. The Earth is the only world known, so far, to harbor life. There is nowhere else, at least in the near future, to which our species could migrate. Visit, yes. Settle, not yet. Like it or not, for the moment, the Earth is where we make our stand. It has been said that astronomy is a humbling and character-building experience. There is perhaps no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world. To me, it underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another and to preserve and cherish the pale blue dot, the only home we've ever known." Vin
Two books I would encourage anyone to read. "Cosmos" & "Pale Blue Dot" by Sagan. They literally were life changing to my outlook on life.
It never ceases to amaze me how the subjects we are taught to avoid discussing with our friends as youngsters, seem to be most discussed when you are older. Namely.......Money, religion and politics. However in family life for me, my Dad, brother and sister, were and are very religious as is my other sister to a degree. Another of my brothers like myself were constantly berated because we did not want to discuss or take part in religious services . They would not talk about Money or Politics, but religion was a free for all and the cause of many a disagreement and argument throughout......My younger brother and I would not capitulate and we were to a certain extent ostracised. So much so when the family emigrated to Australia all those years ago. I stayed........Although my younger brother did not have a choice but to go. Over the years it still is a barrier of sorts, my youngest sister will not talk to me, my other sister still tries to convert me, we do converse on other family matters and see each other regularly. Needless to say I am closest to my younger brother. All that heartache in the name of religion, even in families........Who the heck invented religion?? As others have said the cause of the most worldly conflicts.
This reminds me of when I was in my mid 20s and drove to the south of France in my Triumph Spitfire with a mate. We stayed at a nice campsite in Montpellier and there was an elderly man opposite us in his camper van. After a quick chat we found out he was German. He invited us for a drink that evening. All afternoon, we were joking in true Faulty Towers style "What ever you do, don't mention the war". Guess what, we spent the whole evening discussing the war.....
Should have gone to Oz mate. You might have liked it. Actually, most of Europe's religious dissenters went the other way - to America. And look what trouble that caused.
Have to admit Archers they all did well out there, although I stayed i didn't do so bad for myself either. My sister though reckons that is because she constantly prayed for my soul.......Yea really.......
