Off Topic Politics Thread

[Onionman]

Notice that the picture obscures the near left where the ERG sit!!!! So it may well be a nice meme to talk about "Tories" but all it actually shows is that the government (front bench and backwards from the despatch box) couldn't give a fig .

You're right. Here's a shot of the massed ranks of the ERG around the same time (not carefully selected, just the first moment the cameras covered their packed ranks within a reasonable gap from the other shot I chose. If I could be arsed I'd find another but life's short when you're dealing with a sophist).

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So if the first shot showed (by your argument above) that "the government (front bench and backwards from the despatch box) couldn't give a fig" then this photo shows that "the ERG couldn't give a fig".

Wouldn't you agree?

Vin.

 

[SaintinSerbia]

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[Onionman]

On a separate point.
We’re we to rescind Article 50, how long does it take?
Is it just handingover a written statement or is it more involved?
If the latter have we left enough time to do that?

A motion tabled earlier (but not taken up) involved handing it over overnight on 28/29 March, so 23 hours before the deadline. Pretty snappy is the answer.

Vin

 

[VocalMinority]

The media and government insiders are the ones pushing a 3rd vote as if it is just a case of keep returning it. In the real world Bercow is stating that it will not come back for a 3rd vote if it is just the same thing as already voted on!!

So the point we are at so far is parliament has voted against the deal, it has voted against no deal, it has now voted against having a 2nd referendum. Not sure what is left but you guys will be begging with "please, please revoke".........which would also get voted against.

It hasnt voted against having a second referendum. Parliament decided, along with Remain campaigners, not to make the vote on extending the same vote as the vote on a referendum. as per the statement made when the 2 pro vote groups advised not to vote for the amendment.

 

[Onionman]

From my view I cannot see any group sufficiently organised other than the government making anything happen at all. I appreciate that does not say much(!), but quite honestly none of the opposing parties to the deal on the table have the remotest idea on what to do next. It may be unopular to say this but Mrs May has an almost impossible job here and no-one seems the least bit interested in trying to bring about a concensus. The ERG are as likely as not to fail in their decades long desire to leave the EU with their take on things at present. Corbyn doesn't seem to know what's going on even on his own backbenches and amongst the rest is a scrabble to see if they can get a spot on Newsnight or similar programme and tell us what cannot be done. The entire political establishment at present is doing itself no favours and certainly letting the country down badly.
The uncertainty needs to end, get the deal agreed over the line, get businesses a line to follow and let's get on with what really needs doing in this country, there are plenty of things to do!!

The deal agreed is a horror show. It's driven almost entirely by Theresa May's lifelong ambition of trying to stop immigration at all costs, which meant no Single Market membership. She chose to hijack the Brexit process to fulfil her personal desires regarding immigration and it's a dog's dinner. Not being in the Single Market is a disaster and you'll struggle to find a business leader who actually imports or exports to the EU who would disagree.

Forcing a crappy deal through by delay, obfuscation, threats and brinkmanship is to no-one's benefit bar one Theresa May.

Vin

 

[ImpSaint]

You're right. Here's a shot of the massed ranks of the ERG around the same time (not carefully selected, just the first moment the cameras covered their packed ranks within a reasonable gap from the other shot I chose. If I could be arsed I'd find another but life's short when you're dealing with a sophist).

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So if the first shot showed (by your argument above) that "the government (front bench and backwards from the despatch box) couldn't give a fig" then this photo shows that "the ERG couldn't give a fig".

Wouldn't you agree?

Vin.

Which part of the debate is this from? And do you not notice that the house is normally pretty empty for anything but "main event" speeches? In these sort of things they just turn up, make their speech, and within 10 minutes or so disappear again. They might be called debates but they are just a series of speeches/statements.

 

[Onionman]

Which part of the debate is this from? And do you not notice that the house is normally pretty empty for anything but "main event" speeches? In these sort of things they just turn up, make their speech, and within 10 minutes or so disappear again. They might be called debates but they are just a series of speeches/statements.

And there I was thinking that you were implying that the picture was misleading and that the ERG were present. Oh, you were. But they weren't there, were they?

The people on the opposition benches seem to have turned up for the "series of speeches/statements".

Vin

 

[ImpSaint]

It hasnt voted against having a second referendum. Parliament decided, along with Remain campaigners, not to make the vote on extending the same vote as the vote on a referendum. as per the statement made when the 2 pro vote groups advised not to vote for the amendment.

So why did Ruth Smeeth resign to vote against a 2nd referendum?

 

[ChilcoSaint]

And there I was thinking that you were implying that the picture was misleading and that the ERG were present. Oh, you were. But they weren't there, were they?

The people on the opposition benches seem to have turned up for the "series of speeches/statements".

Vin

I watched pretty much the whole debate today, and I can confirm that apart from Cash, Francois, and a couple of others, the ERG and most other Tories were absent until division time, whereas the opposition benches were well-populated throughout.

 

[ImpSaint]

And there I was thinking that you were implying that the picture was misleading and that the ERG were present. Oh, you were. But they weren't there, were they?

The people on the opposition benches seem to have turned up for the "series of speeches/statements".

Vin

I didn't say that they were present. I merely stated that the picture given did not show what it said it showed. It is like watching a football game with empty seats opposite without knowing how many are on the near side. Quite happy to concede that MPs don't attend debates. As stated many times I think it is a pointless procedure because they don't actually debate. They just make statements and then piss off.

Same as the PMQ charade of:
Q1 - Does the PM agree with me that our party is doing awesomely. hear hear.
Q2 - Why is the party opposite doing so rubbishly, hear, hear. boooh hisss.

The whole procedure including a speaker trying to outdo the JRM types on oldy worldy use of English Language is a side show. They make statements, turn up to vote and that is them done. The house is simply their own TV studio.

 

[ImpSaint]

I watched pretty much the whole debate today, and I can confirm that apart from Cash, Francois, and a couple of others, the ERG and most other Tories were absent until division time, whereas the opposition benches were well-populated throughout.

The opposition benches don't have jobs in government to do!!! They are always more well populated. 200 of the Tory benches are on the government payroll!!!

This is the same no matter who is in power.

+ it is Thursday. Always empty on Thursdays.

 

[ImpSaint]

"Why weren't all the MPs present in the House of Commons during a debate?

The House of Commons usually sits from Monday to Thursday, and on occassional Fridays. It is difficult for MPs to always be in the House of Commons chamber because of other engagements they have to attend or because they have to do work in their office.

Government business is usually conducted on during Mondays until midnight, and then Tuesdays and Wednesdays until mid-late evening. MPs then return to their constituencies to hold meetings and attend events from Thursday-Sunday. This is why the House of Commons may appear half empty on a Thursday or Friday, because many MPs have had to leave London for constituency business. Business on Thursdays is mostly comprised of backbench debates, and Fridays are allocated for Private Members Bills which have been introduced by individual MPs."

 

[VocalMinority]

So why did Ruth Smeeth resign to vote against a 2nd referendum?

Because labour were whipping to abstain.

 

[Brinkworth Saint]

Not sure where you get the knowledge that Corbyn doesn’t know what’s going on from. The government have tried and failed twice to get May’s deal through and now they plan to bring it, unchanged, to the HoC yet again next week, in the hope that Labour or some group of their own backbenchers will blink. Assuming it fails again, who else but a cross-party Group is left to sort the mess out? It’s what should have happened 2 years ago, and we wouldn’t be in this mess if it had.

May didn’t have an impossible job, she has made it impossible by her own stupidity and intransigence.

I'm sorry but we will have to agree to disagree. Corbyn is a lifelong opponent of the EU, there is nowhere near enough consensus to sort the mess out, simply too many fragments of views as to what should happen next. I accept the government has not done it job well but the HoC is an impossible animal at present!

 

[ImpSaint]

It hasnt voted against having a second referendum. Parliament decided, along with Remain campaigners, not to make the vote on extending the same vote as the vote on a referendum. as per the statement made when the 2 pro vote groups advised not to vote for the amendment.

So they weren't voting against having a second referendum.............yet 2 Labour front benchers (maybe more) resigned so they could vote against a second referendum?

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[I Sorry I Ruined The Party]

So they weren't voting against having a second referendum.............yet 2 Labour front benchers (maybe more) resigned so they could vote against a second referendum?

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People are resigning because no one has the support. If you had the votes, why wouldn’t you call referendum? You’d win easily and consolidate your power and be a hero. Get May the **** out of there or have May give you whatever you want because you just saved her, depending on which side you are on.

I’m talking about both sides, or really all three or four or however many sides there are now.

I think the fairest thing to do is let the people vote again, just to make sure of what they really want. But the reality is, there won’t be any clear consensus and nothing will really change.

 

[VocalMinority]

So they weren't voting against having a second referendum.............yet 2 Labour front benchers (maybe more) resigned so they could vote against a second referendum?

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Yup, and most people who supported a second referendum abstained so they couldnt rule it out, keep it on the table and instead have a proper vote in a few days. politics eh.

 

[ImpSaint]

Yup, and most people who supported a second referendum abstained so they couldnt rule it out, keep it on the table and instead have a proper vote in a few days. politics eh.

The maths is against that. even adding up the abstainers 334 voted against!!!

 

[VocalMinority]

The maths is against that. even adding up the abstainers 334 voted against!!!

Against what? They succeeded. It hasn't been ruled out and all that was lost was an amendment that wasn't wanted.

 

[fatletiss]

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