You're quite right Chilcs didn't mean to suggest we were not trading with other countries in total. Doesn't that conflict with your second paragraph? Your point about the tariffs.......I can only speak about what I know for certain. However joining Europe did stop us trading with Australia and New Zealand both commonwealth countries. We were not told of that at our outset. ( Was my understanding) We were actually getting much better prices dealing direct with these two countries than the EU eventually did some 4 years later. We did no favours to our commonwealth countries by joining. They suffered because of this.......... As for not having trade agreements with other countries.....Sorry Chilcs on this you are totally wrong. There is a number of agreements already in place that once we have left the EU will come into effect. I know this as a fact.......I am not going to name them because of a variety of things but trust me on this what I say is true. I can only speak regarding the countries I know about where we have agreements...not as a generality. My understanding to as far as our commonwealth countries are concerned there is always and was always an open agreement to deal direct should the need ever arise. (Or at least with the countries I had direct dealings with)
Best forget it then. It's clearly emotion rather than reason. Which is fine, but it's like trying to reason with religious people; life's too short.
Everyone hates the compromised Brexit deal therefore it must be a fair compromise. I would never ever vote for Brexit (Britain was built on immigration) but I fear a no deal would be worse than the current deal.
Words fail me Beddy. Please share the wisdom you have with us lesser mortals! How many times during the referendum campaign did we hear the words “trust me on this what I say is true”, only to have them exposed as lies once the small print was revealed? On another point: what is your solution to the Irish question once we have the Hard Brexit you hope for? Do you want our grandchildren to grow up like we did with the Troubles back in full flow? The fact is that the Good Friday Agreement which brought (relative) peace to Northern Ireland was only ever going to work with both the UK and the Republic part of the Customs Union. This will be reversed if we have a no-deal Brexit. But no, you have personal reasons for us leaving so I guess that trumps everything!
So you think the northern Ireland troubles finished because we joined the EU or that because we were in the EU?? Sorry but from my perspective those troubles and there subsequent demise had very little to do with it. On this we will have to just disagree....... Oh dear........There has I agree been a lot of bullshit been touted by both camps to be fair as I see it........As I explained I can only base my judgement on personal experience and that of my direct family. The same about the agreements which I know to have been made regarding trade. I don't see that if the troubles flare up again in NI it will have anything to do with being or not being in the EU. No doubt it might be blamed on that.......In my eyes that would be just propaganda. Your remark re my personal reasons is insulting! I have not anywhere intimated that my feelings trumps anything!!!!!!!! For me they are real I have never said anyone should feel the same............
I can assure you my personal reasons are not religious .......I have explained some of my other reasons too Vin.
After reading, so often, that not supporting May’s deal would mean a No Deal Brexit, it was interesting to read, this morning, that Tory Brexiteer MPs are allegedly being given a “support the deal or there will be No Brexit” option.
That’s not what I said and you know it. We joined the Common Market in 1973 and the Troubles were going on the whole time until the Good Friday Agreement in 1998. The main reason for the Good Friday Agreement working was devolved government with power sharing, along with the frictionless border with the South. The devolved government seems to be limping along but if the border closes, there will be renewed calls from the Republicans in the North for reunification, and the paramilitaries on both sides will start kicking off again. If you think that doesn’t matter and has nothing to do with us leaving the EU you are hiding your head in the sand.
This statement is what I found insulting.......".But no, you have personal reasons for us leaving so I guess that trumps everything!" Of course I wouldn't want the troubles in NI to reoccur. However I damned if I would be blackmailed into having to make decisions because the Irish might cause a flare up!! To be fair....the way I see both NI and Scotland is that if they wish to be part of the EU then fine as far as I'm concerned.......I cant see a real problem with that. Ok I'll accept that would cause border problems with Scotland but they wouldn't be insurmountable
I didn’t mean to insult you and I apologise if you took it that way. I don’t see any situation where NI or Scotland remain in the EU without breaking up the UK. I can’t believe you’re actually suggesting that!
Thank you.......... Hang on a minute Chilcs...........lordy no I am not suggesting that at all. They both have their own parliaments so in a way they are separate units as I see it. Would it really mean the break up of UK? They both would still be agreeing to the queen as head of state wouldn't they? Could there not be an agreement reached on these boundaries. Isn't that what is trying to be done in NI? I don't see why it should although in truth I haven't thought that seriously about it........ What if the Scots eventually vote for independence? They at least are saying they would still like the queen as their head of state as it were. (Or they did at the last referendum.) A difficult one I grant you but surely not impossible. Is it really all or nothing if your in the EU. The Canaries the Azores etc were not part of the EU at the outset were they.......? I know they are now but they weren't from the beginning. Is Gibraltar in the EU as such (I know they follow EU rules on trade) but wasn't sure they too were in the EU. Wasn't that what the Spanish were complaining about and the fact it was Duty free etc? Also to do with fishing rights and some such?? Never honestly thought about it before........But no I wouldn't like to break the UK up at all.
But the government don't agree with you and are armed with a referendum backing them. Many other politicians also don't agree with you and therefore don't want to find a way to make it happen. And so Remain isn't an option at all. I'm not saying that I disagree with what you want to happen, just that I really can't see how it can possibly happen but impossibly*. (*May is ousted, an Election called, Labour win a majority, convince enough Brexiteers to back it to get Parliament to set up a new referendum and the population votes Remain) Your point about unacceptable laws doesn't apply, the referendum isn't law. However, when we leave there will be legislation put in place and at some point in the future we could rejoin the EU again which would follow your Poll Tax point.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.spectator.co.uk/2018/10/tony-abbott-how-to-save-brexit/amp/ This was an interesting article, and I have to say that I agree with most of what Abbott is saying
post Brexit the UK could be holding the world cup and the Olympics for decades as everyone else realises it's a complete waste of money
Anyone's who claims "No Deal" is fine really is putting political beliefs in front of evidence. Apart from Minford the lunatic, I can't think of an economist in Britain who thinks it'll be OK (and even Minford says it'll be the death of UK motor manufacturing). Even Rees-Mogg admits it might take 50 years to pay off (i.e. he's happy to write off my children's entire working lives). Vin
Abbot's paragraph here shows a chasm of misunderstanding of Grand Canyonesque scale. "A world trade Brexit lets Britain set its own rules. It can say, right now, that it will not impose any tariff or quota on European produce and would recognise all EU product standards. That means no border controls for goods coming from Europe to Britain. You don’t need to negotiate this: just do it. If Europe knows what’s in its own best interests, it would fully reciprocate in order to maintain entirely free trade and full mutual recognition of standards right across Europe." Nope. It can't. If it imposes no tariff on EU produce it must do the same for everyone. I'm not giving a view on whether it's a good or bad thing, just that we can't just say that to Europe in order to free up European trade. We have to say it to everyone. Nope. And not because the EU wants to punish us or doesn't care about us. No, WTO rules mean that if they drop tariffs on an item from the UK (and Abbott's suggesting on everything) then they have to drop them for every single country in the world. Just to keep the UK happy. Not to know all that suggests that he really has no idea. I'm just a bloke on the internet. I know it. He's politicking, not making serious suggestions. Vin
im not doubting your reasons for leaving the EU, its you seem to be ignoring all the viewpoints in the referendum because as the winner you have the power to do so and then accusing me of doing the same. Ie its your view on democracy i have a problem with., not your view on the EU.
