Off Topic Politics Thread

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ChilcoSaint said:
A well reasoned argument Beddy, which I won’t attempt to tackle piece by piece, but just on your first point, we don’t trade only with the EU, that’s just absurd. The strongest countries in the world, ranked by economy, are of course the USA, China, and Japan. Some of the individual nations in the EU have strong economies, notably Germany, the UK, and France, who rank just behind the top 3. Collectively, though, the EU has the 2nd strongest in the world, stronger than China and just behind the US. What this means is that all the other nations in the world find it very attractive to trade with the EU, and because of our collective strength, the tariffs are beneficial to the EU nations.

The UK currently doesn’t have any trade deals with the rest of the world, as all our trade is done through the EU. The politicians who tell you that making a trade deal with other nations, with tariffs as low as those we have via the EU, are lying.

Oh, and by the way, the reason we didn’t join the original Common Market back when it was originally formed was because we were still receiving aid from America under the Marshall Plan, and we didn’t want to jeopardise that. Perhaps we would have had a better relationship with the rest of our European neighbours if we had joined with them from the start. I imagine leaving the EU, whether it’s via the Draft Agreement, or, heaven forbid, via a Hard Brexit, will put us in a very bad odour with our former partners which we will never shake off.
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You're quite right Chilcs didn't mean to suggest we were not trading with other countries in total. Doesn't that conflict with your second paragraph?
Your point about the tariffs.......I can only speak about what I know for certain.
However joining Europe did stop us trading with Australia and New Zealand both commonwealth countries. We were not told of that at our outset. ( Was my understanding) We were actually getting much better prices dealing direct with these two countries than the EU eventually did some 4 years later. We did no favours to our commonwealth countries by joining. They suffered because of this..........
As for not having trade agreements with other countries.....Sorry Chilcs on this you are totally wrong.
There is a number of agreements already in place that once we have left the EU will come into effect. I know this as a fact.......I am not going to name them because of a variety of things but trust me on this what I say is true. I can only speak regarding the countries I know about where we have agreements...not as a generality.
My understanding to as far as our commonwealth countries are concerned there is always and was always an open agreement to deal direct should the need ever arise. (Or at least with the countries I had direct dealings with)
 
Beddytare said:
Morning Vin............Mate I voted for an out vote.....not a potential stay in........... an out and out vote out. My main reasons are personal and are not open for discussions. However.........We have survived for hundreds of years without having to be forced to only trade with a few nations. When we were asked about Joining what was the then common market I voted against then in the 60s.
In the late 40s when a few EU countries formed the original market Britain was asked then if we would consider being part of it. The government of the day declined (I understand) as we were not ready to make such a decision. However as part of an occupying force we had no objections and in fact encouraged it. We did say at the time once we had got our selves in order we would look at what they were offering and maybe join.
I am not clear on when exactly we applied to join the common market as it was then called...... I believe it was around 1952.......A vote was taken by the whole group of nations and everyone agreed....(Except De Gaulle...... I'm not sure if he was president then) The French vetoed it. (That part I'm sure about) So we were not allowed in. I do not know his reasons. Although my understanding was to do with the fee they were asking us to put in to join and the fee we said we would be prepared to pay. (That is a simplified version I agree) The French were quite insulting at the time was also my understanding.
I believe we reapplied 3 years later but were declined again, my understanding was it was the French again. ( You have to also understand the French were the dominating force in the market at the time although Germany was by now catching them up mighty fast.)
As a single Nation The Uk was doing extremely well........we had are ups and downs especially politically and some bad decisions were made (my opinion) but we exceeded expansion if you call it that, faster than the combined E U. Things started to slow in the mid 60s......(baring in mind we were not trading with Europe in this time) We were actually invited to join the common market to help the UK and Europe beat the slow down. The rest is history.
The EU brought in a lot of good things.....but then the European court was formed and it was found they could over rule any of the member nations highest courts judgements. (My second highest reason for wanting out) Why the heck we didn't veto this I'll never know!! Then other things started to creep in ok its a matter of opinion whether you think they benefit the various countries. Some of which I was very sceptical about........ the open borders, is one, the freedom of movement is another, just to mention a couple.
In my mind, we as a country seemed to be being taken over by the European diplomats that were not exactly voted into office. I know we had a veto, and I know we had a say but with so many poorer countries now involved they would have gone along with anything as they were getting more out than they were putting in. You can't blame them.
So the UK's voice in the EU was practically negated by the dominating countries.
The way I look at it is ........My family over generations fought to keep this country independent and gave their lives to keep the UK a free nation just as I suspect did a lot of others on here. You will never change my mind on that!!
If the UK could keep its total independence and go back to the original trade arrangements then maybe I could be persuaded differently.
Over the years since the age of 16 or so I have had so much more dealings within countries of the EU than any of you realise...and why should you.
I am not trying to convince anyone that my view is the correct one its just how I feel. Just as a lot on here have an opposite view........In reality who knows who is right or wrong?
I firmly believe we as a nation can do as well if not better than the bullies of the EU (I'm sorry that is how I see them) yes it will take a bit of time but you should (in my opinion) have more faith in our own countries ability.
I apologise to anyone who finds any of my above comments offensive....... I have just tried (a bit long winded I accept) to explain how I feel. I am not trying to persuade anyone to change their mind or not to have an opposing view. What ever happens in regards to this whole debacle I will go along with like you all.
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Best forget it then. It's clearly emotion rather than reason. Which is fine, but it's like trying to reason with religious people; life's too short.
 
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Everyone hates the compromised Brexit deal therefore it must be a fair compromise.

I would never ever vote for Brexit (Britain was built on immigration) but I fear a no deal would be worse than the current deal.
 
Beddytare said:
You're quite right Chilcs didn't mean to suggest we were not trading with other countries in total. Doesn't that conflict with your second paragraph?
Your point about the tariffs.......I can only speak about what I know for certain.
However joining Europe did stop us trading with Australia and New Zealand both commonwealth countries. We were not told of that at our outset. ( Was my understanding) We were actually getting much better prices dealing direct with these two countries than the EU eventually did some 4 years later. We did no favours to our commonwealth countries by joining. They suffered because of this..........
As for not having trade agreements with other countries.....Sorry Chilcs on this you are totally wrong.
There is a number of agreements already in place that once we have left the EU will come into effect. I know this as a fact.......I am not going to name them because of a variety of things but trust me on this what I say is true. I can only speak regarding the countries I know about where we have agreements...not as a generality.
My understanding to as far as our commonwealth countries are concerned there is always and was always an open agreement to deal direct should the need ever arise. (Or at least with the countries I had direct dealings with)
Click to expand...
Words fail me Beddy. Please share the wisdom you have with us lesser mortals!

How many times during the referendum campaign did we hear the words “trust me on this what I say is true”, only to have them exposed as lies once the small print was revealed?

On another point: what is your solution to the Irish question once we have the Hard Brexit you hope for? Do you want our grandchildren to grow up like we did with the Troubles back in full flow? The fact is that the Good Friday Agreement which brought (relative) peace to Northern Ireland was only ever going to work with both the UK and the Republic part of the Customs Union. This will be reversed if we have a no-deal Brexit.

But no, you have personal reasons for us leaving so I guess that trumps everything!
 
ChilcoSaint said:
Words fail me Beddy. Please share the wisdom you have with us lesser mortals!

How many times during the referendum campaign did we hear the words “trust me on this what I say is true”, only to have them exposed as lies once the small print was revealed?

On another point: what is your solution to the Irish question once we have the Hard Brexit you hope for? Do you want our grandchildren to grow up like we did with the Troubles back in full flow? The fact is that the Good Friday Agreement which brought (relative) peace to Northern Ireland was only ever going to work with both the UK and the Republic part of the Customs Union. This will be reversed if we have a no-deal Brexit.

But no, you have personal reasons for us leaving so I guess that trumps everything!
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So you think the northern Ireland troubles finished because we joined the EU or that because we were in the EU?? Sorry but from my perspective those troubles and there subsequent demise had very little to do with it. On this we will have to just disagree.......
Oh dear........There has I agree been a lot of bullshit been touted by both camps to be fair as I see it........As I explained I can only base my judgement on personal experience and that of my direct family. The same about the agreements which I know to have been made regarding trade. I don't see that if the troubles flare up again in NI it will have anything to do with being or not being in the EU. No doubt it might be blamed on that.......In my eyes that would be just propaganda.
Your remark re my personal reasons is insulting! I have not anywhere intimated that my feelings trumps anything!!!!!!!!
For me they are real I have never said anyone should feel the same............
 
Onionman said:
Best forget it then. It's clearly emotion rather than reason. Which is fine, but it's like trying to reason with religious people; life's too short.
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I can assure you my personal reasons are not religious .......I have explained some of my other reasons too Vin.
 
After reading, so often, that not supporting May’s deal would mean a No Deal Brexit, it was interesting to read, this morning, that Tory Brexiteer MPs are allegedly being given a “support the deal or there will be No Brexit” option.
 
Beddytare said:
So you think the northern Ireland troubles finished because we joined the EU or that because we were in the EU?? Sorry but from my perspective those troubles and there subsequent demise had very little to do with it. On this we will have to just disagree.......
Oh dear........There has I agree been a lot of bullshit been touted by both camps to be fair as I see it........As I explained I can only base my judgement on personal experience and that of my direct family. The same about the agreements which I know to have been made regarding trade. I don't see that if the troubles flare up again in NI it will have anything to do with being or not being in the EU. No doubt it might be blamed on that.......In my eyes that would be just propaganda.
Your remark re my personal reasons is insulting! I have not anywhere intimated that my feelings trumps anything!!!!!!!!
For me they are real I have never said anyone should feel the same............
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That’s not what I said and you know it. We joined the Common Market in 1973 and the Troubles were going on the whole time until the Good Friday Agreement in 1998. The main reason for the Good Friday Agreement working was devolved government with power sharing, along with the frictionless border with the South. The devolved government seems to be limping along but if the border closes, there will be renewed calls from the Republicans in the North for reunification, and the paramilitaries on both sides will start kicking off again. If you think that doesn’t matter and has nothing to do with us leaving the EU you are hiding your head in the sand.
 
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ChilcoSaint said:
That’s not what I said and you know it. We joined the Common Market in 1973 and the Troubles were going on the whole time until the Good Friday Agreement in 1998. The main reason for the Good Friday Agreement working was devolved government with power sharing, along with the frictionless border with the South. The devolved government seems to be limping along but if the border closes, there will be renewed calls from the Republicans in the North for reunification, and the paramilitaries on both sides will start kicking off again. If you think that doesn’t matter and has nothing to do with us leaving the EU you are hiding your head in the sand.
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This statement is what I found insulting.......".But no, you have personal reasons for us leaving so I guess that trumps everything!"
Of course I wouldn't want the troubles in NI to reoccur. However I damned if I would be blackmailed into having to make decisions because the Irish might cause a flare up!!
To be fair....the way I see both NI and Scotland is that if they wish to be part of the EU then fine as far as I'm concerned.......I cant see a real problem with that. Ok I'll accept that would cause border problems with Scotland but they wouldn't be insurmountable
 
Beddytare said:
This statement is what I found insulting.......".But no, you have personal reasons for us leaving so I guess that trumps everything!"
Of course I wouldn't want the troubles in NI to reoccur. However I damned if I would be blackmailed into having to make decisions because the Irish might cause a flare up!!
To be fair....the way I see both NI and Scotland is that if they wish to be part of the EU then fine as far as I'm concerned.......I cant see a real problem with that. Ok I'll accept that would cause border problems with Scotland but they wouldn't be insurmountable
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I didn’t mean to insult you and I apologise if you took it that way.

I don’t see any situation where NI or Scotland remain in the EU without breaking up the UK. I can’t believe you’re actually suggesting that!
 
ChilcoSaint said:
I didn’t mean to insult you and I apologise if you took it that way.

I don’t see any situation where NI or Scotland remain in the EU without breaking up the UK. I can’t believe you’re actually suggesting that!
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Thank you..........
Hang on a minute Chilcs...........lordy no I am not suggesting that at all.
They both have their own parliaments so in a way they are separate units as I see it. Would it really mean the break up of UK? They both would still be agreeing to the queen as head of state wouldn't they?
Could there not be an agreement reached on these boundaries. Isn't that what is trying to be done in NI? I don't see why it should although in truth I haven't thought that seriously about it........ What if the Scots eventually vote for independence? They at least are saying they would still like the queen as their head of state as it were. (Or they did at the last referendum.) A difficult one I grant you but surely not impossible. Is it really all or nothing if your in the EU.
The Canaries the Azores etc were not part of the EU at the outset were they.......? I know they are now but they weren't from the beginning. Is Gibraltar in the EU as such (I know they follow EU rules on trade) but wasn't sure they too were in the EU. Wasn't that what the Spanish were complaining about and the fact it was Duty free etc? Also to do with fishing rights and some such?? Never honestly thought about it before........But no I wouldn't like to break the UK up at all.
 
ChilcoSaint said:
The Draft Agreement isn’t acceptable to many sections of the UK for many different reasons, most notably the future of Northern Ireland. Those Tory frontbenchers trying to change it won’t have any success because the EU are done negotiating. Remain is now the only option which is achievable which won’t ruin the UK both economically and socially for the next generation or more. The politicians just have to find a way to make it happen.

Going back to @Beddytare’s argument about the referendum being binding, have you never heard of unacceptable laws being repealed? Different times, different situation, but remember the Poll Tax?
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But the government don't agree with you and are armed with a referendum backing them. Many other politicians also don't agree with you and therefore don't want to find a way to make it happen. And so Remain isn't an option at all.

I'm not saying that I disagree with what you want to happen, just that I really can't see how it can possibly happen but impossibly*.

(*May is ousted, an Election called, Labour win a majority, convince enough Brexiteers to back it to get Parliament to set up a new referendum and the population votes Remain)

Your point about unacceptable laws doesn't apply, the referendum isn't law. However, when we leave there will be legislation put in place and at some point in the future we could rejoin the EU again which would follow your Poll Tax point.
 
Anyone's who claims "No Deal" is fine really is putting political beliefs in front of evidence.

Apart from Minford the lunatic, I can't think of an economist in Britain who thinks it'll be OK (and even Minford says it'll be the death of UK motor manufacturing). Even Rees-Mogg admits it might take 50 years to pay off (i.e. he's happy to write off my children's entire working lives).

Vin
 
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Abbot's paragraph here shows a chasm of misunderstanding of Grand Canyonesque scale.

"A world trade Brexit lets Britain set its own rules. It can say, right now, that it will not impose any tariff or quota on European produce and would recognise all EU product standards. That means no border controls for goods coming from Europe to Britain. You don’t need to negotiate this: just do it. If Europe knows what’s in its own best interests, it would fully reciprocate in order to maintain entirely free trade and full mutual recognition of standards right across Europe."

Nope. It can't. If it imposes no tariff on EU produce it must do the same for everyone. I'm not giving a view on whether it's a good or bad thing, just that we can't just say that to Europe in order to free up European trade. We have to say it to everyone.

Nope. And not because the EU wants to punish us or doesn't care about us. No, WTO rules mean that if they drop tariffs on an item from the UK (and Abbott's suggesting on everything) then they have to drop them for every single country in the world. Just to keep the UK happy.

Not to know all that suggests that he really has no idea. I'm just a bloke on the internet. I know it. He's politicking, not making serious suggestions.

Vin
 
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Beddytare said:
Morning Vin............Mate I voted for an out vote.....not a potential stay in........... an out and out vote out. My main reasons are personal and are not open for discussions. However.........We have survived for hundreds of years without having to be forced to only trade with a few nations. When we were asked about Joining what was the then common market I voted against then in the 60s.
In the late 40s when a few EU countries formed the original market Britain was asked then if we would consider being part of it. The government of the day declined (I understand) as we were not ready to make such a decision. However as part of an occupying force we had no objections and in fact encouraged it. We did say at the time once we had got our selves in order we would look at what they were offering and maybe join.
I am not clear on when exactly we applied to join the common market as it was then called...... I believe it was around 1952.......A vote was taken by the whole group of nations and everyone agreed....(Except De Gaulle...... I'm not sure if he was president then) The French vetoed it. (That part I'm sure about) So we were not allowed in. I do not know his reasons. Although my understanding was to do with the fee they were asking us to put in to join and the fee we said we would be prepared to pay. (That is a simplified version I agree) The French were quite insulting at the time was also my understanding.
I believe we reapplied 3 years later but were declined again, my understanding was it was the French again. ( You have to also understand the French were the dominating force in the market at the time although Germany was by now catching them up mighty fast.)
As a single Nation The Uk was doing extremely well........we had are ups and downs especially politically and some bad decisions were made (my opinion) but we exceeded expansion if you call it that, faster than the combined E U. Things started to slow in the mid 60s......(baring in mind we were not trading with Europe in this time) We were actually invited to join the common market to help the UK and Europe beat the slow down. The rest is history.
The EU brought in a lot of good things.....but then the European court was formed and it was found they could over rule any of the member nations highest courts judgements. (My second highest reason for wanting out) Why the heck we didn't veto this I'll never know!! Then other things started to creep in ok its a matter of opinion whether you think they benefit the various countries. Some of which I was very sceptical about........ the open borders, is one, the freedom of movement is another, just to mention a couple.
In my mind, we as a country seemed to be being taken over by the European diplomats that were not exactly voted into office. I know we had a veto, and I know we had a say but with so many poorer countries now involved they would have gone along with anything as they were getting more out than they were putting in. You can't blame them.
So the UK's voice in the EU was practically negated by the dominating countries.
The way I look at it is ........My family over generations fought to keep this country independent and gave their lives to keep the UK a free nation just as I suspect did a lot of others on here. You will never change my mind on that!!
If the UK could keep its total independence and go back to the original trade arrangements then maybe I could be persuaded differently.
Over the years since the age of 16 or so I have had so much more dealings within countries of the EU than any of you realise...and why should you.
I am not trying to convince anyone that my view is the correct one its just how I feel. Just as a lot on here have an opposite view........In reality who knows who is right or wrong?
I firmly believe we as a nation can do as well if not better than the bullies of the EU (I'm sorry that is how I see them) yes it will take a bit of time but you should (in my opinion) have more faith in our own countries ability.
I apologise to anyone who finds any of my above comments offensive....... I have just tried (a bit long winded I accept) to explain how I feel. I am not trying to persuade anyone to change their mind or not to have an opposing view. What ever happens in regards to this whole debacle I will go along with like you all.
Click to expand...
im not doubting your reasons for leaving the EU, its you seem to be ignoring all the viewpoints in the referendum because as the winner you have the power to do so and then accusing me of doing the same. Ie its your view on democracy i have a problem with., not your view on the EU.
 
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