Off Topic Politics Thread

[San Tejón]

I listened to Any Answers the other day. Yes, I am old enough to be a Radio 4 man, and the audience was surprisingly positive about Labour. Almost all pensioners, the overriding sentiment was removing universal WFA was the correct move, but they didn’t understand why Labour and the press were not reminding everyone that the triple lock meant pensioners were 1400 quid better off - while losing only £400 for WFA. Pensioners are better off - but nobody is pushing that narrative.

And as I have mentioned before, nobody ever mentions the year the Tories froze the triple lock meaning a lower state pension increase, not just in that year but every year since.
My pension should be between **£1500 and £2000 more than it is as a direct result of that.
** I haven’t checked back on when I first did the maths, so this is coming from my old memory.

 

[EasyBreezer]

This epitaph can also be applied to Cameron, Johnson and Farage!! In fact I thought it was referring to Farage as no oñe has called him out!

All terrible for varying reasons. But all called out by political observers for nearly the entirety of their careers.

Farage is literally scorned by a huge chunk of people on a regular basis. This thread is full of anti-Farage sentiment.

Sturgeon had 95% of seats within a country and effectively unlimited political capital and saw education standards get worse, inequality to rise, health standards to drop relative to the UK and did nothing to improve having the worst drug deaths in Europe per capita. Joke.

 

[It'sOnlyAGame]

What a **** article. Literally takes her stats from a webpage where ordinary people write suggestions for improving the NHS.

The PR push for Reform is getting silly now. I listened to Rees-Mogg talking about Reform the other day. He said Reform were just the Tory party with some rebranding and no discernible policy difference - and eventually it would merge into the Tory party. So, are people stupid? No more stupid than they have been for the last 80 years, where being conned into voting for some version of the Tory party by a press paid for the by the wealthy and a clearly vested interest in promoting the business class ahead of the working class.

What an appallingly cheap analogy the ‘lanyard class’ is. We worship intellectual mediocrity in this country, and the shameless pushing of the ‘liberal elite’ narrative - when we have not ever been run by liberal elites - is painful. The politics of self-pity is booming. Oh let’s blame foreigners and clever people for our **** lives - while voting for morons over and over.

Sorry, but only racists and morons vote for Reform. Or absolute bellends.

What she didn't mention is how delicate the lanyard class are to having their own faults pointed out. Nerve well and truly hit.

"Absolute bellend" just about sums up the conceited attitude of one or two on here.

Stop sneering at Reform voters
There is nothing ‘kind’ or ‘compassionate’ about the left’s contempt for the working class.

Patrick West
Columnist
Over the past week, many respectable people have been asking us and themselves: what’s the best way to stop Reform UK? Here’s a suggestion: stop ignoring or dismissing the concerns of those who voted for Nigel Farage’s party because you consider these issues too embarrassing or impolite to discuss. Or, even better: stop disdaining and sneering at people who are poorer than you.

This is what has always added insult to injury among those who feel left behind. It’s the haughty derision from their material betters – from the overclass that recoils in horror at their supposedly unrefined opinions and unsophisticated ways. It’s the lordly contempt shown by then prime minister Gordon Brown in 2010, when he called a Rochdale pensioner a ‘bigoted woman’ for voicing concern about immigration. It’s the ill-concealed odium that was on display in 2014, when Labour MP Emily Thornberry posted a snarky picture on social media of a Rochester house decked in English flags. It’s the same sniffy disregard that was laid bare last Friday, when Lucy Powell, the leader of the House of Commons, waved away concerns about grooming gangs as ‘dogwhistle’ politics.
Since the 1970s, Labour and the left have defined themselves foremost as ‘kind’ and ‘caring’ people, in contradistinction to the supposedly nasty and selfish people on the right. It’s the vacuous and performative compassion of the liberal left, and the disproportionate load placed on this pose, that has helped to bring about the cleavage between the so-called progressives and the working class.

That’s why, ever since Labour became the party for the refined, well-meaning middle-class, immigration has always been an inconvenience. For progressives, to speak in remotely negative terms on the matter is almost unthinkable. To be called ‘racist’ is without doubt our culture’s biggest taboo, and this is why Labour hasn’t spoken honestly and frankly about immigration for decades. It’s terrified of the subject, for reasons both practical and existential.

This is why Labour can only deflect and evade on matters pertaining to race and ethnicity. It’s why Jess Phillips, Labour’s safeguarding minister, huffed with impatient irritation last month when the rape gangs were mentioned in parliament. It’s why, in January, Keir Starmer accused those calling for a public inquiry on the matter of jumping on the ‘bandwagon of the far right’.

Most people are bored beyond tears with the empty smear, ‘far right’. But politicians and left-wing commentators resort to the verbal tactic deliberately. It’s because to be ‘right wing’ in the public subconscious is to be selfish or evil, while to be ‘left wing’ is to be caring.
It’s unfortunate, then, that one of the most pressing problems for Britain today, in the minds of millions, is a subject matter on which no one can emerge looking very nice: immigration.

 

[It'sOnlyAGame]

Looks like the bellends have forced the government into doing something a bit racist and moronic. Although I don't suppose it is in this case.

The prime minister promises net migration will fall "significantly", vowing that every area of the UK's immigration system will be tightened.

Changes made in the White Paper, which will be published today, will "finally take back control of our borders", he adds.

Without immigration controls, the UK risks becoming an "island of strangers, not a nation that walks forward together".

 

[......loading......]

Looks like the bellends have forced the government into doing something a bit racist and moronic. Although I don't suppose it is in this case.

The prime minister promises net migration will fall "significantly", vowing that every area of the UK's immigration system will be tightened.

Changes made in the White Paper, which will be published today, will "finally take back control of our borders", he adds.

Without immigration controls, the UK risks becoming an "island of strangers, not a nation that walks forward together".

If only the bellends could read? I think every single person on this board, and the vast majority of people in every party and in every walk of life, believes in controlled immigration. I have stated as such many, many times. But Reform are dogwhistlers, going on about boats and finding as many opportunities as possible to muddy the waters and make it about islam. And yes, they are a nasty, grubby little party with a support base who tend to be disinterested in politics but very interested in headlines.

 

[San Tejón]

Listened to a snippet of the James O’Brien show and he thinks that when the immigration figures are released, in a week or two, it will show a substantial drop in numbers coming in to the country over the last year.
He wasn’t aware of the numbers for people leaving so couldn’t say anything about what the nett figures will be.

 

[ImpSaint]

If only the bellends could read? I think every single person on this board, and the vast majority of people in every party and in every walk of life, believes in controlled immigration. I have stated as such many, many times. But Reform are dogwhistlers, going on about boats and finding as many opportunities as possible to muddy the waters and make it about islam. And yes, they are a nasty, grubby little party with a support base who tend to be disinterested in politics but very interested in headlines.

Yes Reform "go on about boats." Ermm, Kier Starmers main slogan has been "smash the gangs" (same thing) Tories have been on about it (while not doing anything about it) for years. Reality is Reform are targeting the tiny illegal migrant element of the problem because it is the only one that they won't have it thrown back in their faces.............and the other 2 bang on about it because they have been happy to ignore the wholesale UK importing of cheap labour for decades because at the end of the day that is what has happened and is happening and both Labour and Tory and their pals in the upper circle are quite happy with that.

The articles above and the reactions to them are priceless. They describe the problem, quite accurately if you ask me, and the response in here basically proves the point.

The line about working class people don't want to be middle class. They want to be themselves but better off" is a superb line.

Lanyard class, Middle Class, Managerial class. Call it what you will but across the western world over the past 30+ years governments have ignored their populace (the voters) instead telling them what they should think. Seems to have worked with Thurmwood who I think lives in his own bubble with no access to any source of current affairs. But others here do show disdain for the working class. Happy to parrot about skills shortages in construction. Where are all those construction workers from the housing boom before the financial crisis? Ahh thats right they changed careers when their wages were near halved when the accession countries hit 2005 and mostly tied to contracts with the big housebuilders they were shafted when the financial crisis hit and not re-contracted.

Where are all those food production operatives that were doing the jobs before 2005? They all got shafted too (I was one remember) when cheaper options that did not demand their workers rights nor a market rate for doing a crap, hard job in the middle of nowhere became available in numbers.

Social care is a sickener. There used to be lots of qualified UK social care workers. That is solely down to governments of the past decades probably seeing an avenue for profit somewhere there. Probably started as far back as Major that one.

And no I didn't vote reform. I can just see why people did. I didn't vote at all this time and like I have said for more than a decade now. If government will not listen people will vote for any option that isn't LibLabCon! Whether Reform will actually help them at all is on a par with whether Corbyn would have helped at all. they are both reset buttons!

Too many people with their fingers in their ears, eyes closed just repeating to themselves that others are lying or stupid.........and that is the problem.


The boats/gangs rhetoric is quite simply a narrative that LibLabCon are happy to talk about with Reform but it is small fry.

Anyways we voted leave 9 years ago and my wife is still here. What is taking so long? I thought I would be free of her by now.

 

[ImpSaint]

Listened to a snippet of the James O’Brien show and he thinks that when the immigration figures are released, in a week or two, it will show a substantial drop in numbers coming in to the country over the last year.
He wasn’t aware of the numbers for people leaving so couldn’t say anything about what the net figures will be.

They will be much lower but still very high because the Tories changed the VISA rules last year, probably in a desperate attempt to save themselves.

 

[Archers Road]

I listened to Any Answers the other day. Yes, I am old enough to be a Radio 4 man, and the audience was surprisingly positive about Labour. Almost all pensioners, the overriding sentiment was removing universal WFA was the correct move, but they didn’t understand why Labour and the press were not reminding everyone that the triple lock meant pensioners were 1400 quid better off - while losing only £400 for WFA. Pensioners are better off - but nobody is pushing that narrative.

Labour’s inability to get their message across is their greatest failing imo. There’s lots of positive stuff on the NHS, railways, energy, housing, workplace rights etc. But none of that is being heard; partly because we have such a relentlessly partisan news media, sure, but Labour need to find a way around that.

 

[StJabbo1]

Listened to a snippet of the James O’Brien show and he thinks that when the immigration figures are released, in a week or two, it will show a substantial drop in numbers coming in to the country over the last year.
He wasn’t aware of the numbers for people leaving so couldn’t say anything about what the nett figures will be.

Numbers will fall as has been predicted having peaked after Afghanistan, Hong Kong, the Ukraine invasion and other migratory pressures.
Mobilising, retraining, whatever else that needs to be done with the alleged pool of millions of people who are able to work but don't is a lot more difficult than a politician's soundbite solutions. Look at the collosal failure of attempting to recruit British vegetable pickers. Health and social services would collapse without immigration along with transport services and other sectors.

 

[......loading......]

Yes Reform "go on about boats." Ermm, Kier Starmers main slogan has been "smash the gangs" (same thing) Tories have been on about it (while not doing anything about it) for years. Reality is Reform are targeting the tiny illegal migrant element of the problem because it is the only one that they won't have it thrown back in their faces.............and the other 2 bang on about it because they have been happy to ignore the wholesale UK importing of cheap labour for decades because at the end of the day that is what has happened and is happening and both Labour and Tory and their pals in the upper circle are quite happy with that.

The articles above and the reactions to them are priceless. They describe the problem, quite accurately if you ask me, and the response in here basically proves the point.

The line about working class people don't want to be middle class. They want to be themselves but better off" is a superb line.

Lanyard class, Middle Class, Managerial class. Call it what you will but across the western world over the past 30+ years governments have ignored their populace (the voters) instead telling them what they should think. Seems to have worked with Thurmwood who I think lives in his own bubble with no access to any source of current affairs. But others here do show disdain for the working class. Happy to parrot about skills shortages in construction. Where are all those construction workers from the housing boom before the financial crisis? Ahh thats right they changed careers when their wages were near halved when the accession countries hit 2005 and mostly tied to contracts with the big housebuilders they were shafted when the financial crisis hit and not re-contracted.

Where are all those food production operatives that were doing the jobs before 2005? They all got shafted too (I was one remember) when cheaper options that did not demand their workers rights nor a market rate for doing a crap, hard job in the middle of nowhere became available in numbers.

Social care is a sickener. There used to be lots of qualified UK social care workers. That is solely down to governments of the past decades probably seeing an avenue for profit somewhere there. Probably started as far back as Major that one.

And no I didn't vote reform. I can just see why people did. I didn't vote at all this time and like I have said for more than a decade now. If government will not listen people will vote for any option that isn't LibLabCon! Whether Reform will actually help them at all is on a par with whether Corbyn would have helped at all. they are both reset buttons!

Too many people with their fingers in their ears, eyes closed just repeating to themselves that others are lying or stupid.........and that is the problem.


The boats/gangs rhetoric is quite simply a narrative that LibLabCon are happy to talk about with Reform but it is small fry.

Anyways we voted leave 9 years ago and my wife is still here. What is taking so long? I thought I would be free of her by now.

But Labour have actually acted on the real issue - and the social care thing matters. Reform are not a political party - they are a populist voice shouted into the echo chamber. They have no offer of substance and they DO conflate immigration and rape gangs and islam constantly as it is a popular sentiment among those who have no real idea what the numbers are. Nigel Farage is a career bullshitter, and the fact anyone thinks he is offering an alternative is beyond deluded. He is the face of the money people, not an agitator determined to destroy the social order. All he has done is help progress the speed at which the wealthy can extract wealth from the poor. Nothing has accelerated that quite as much as Brexit and the relaxing of access to visas for people in low skilled work.

And if you can’t see the hypocrisy of a Times journalist gaslighting ‘liberal elites’, when really the people who have been tanking the country have been the banking class, then I don’t know what to say.

 

[ImpSaint]

But Labour have actually acted on the real issue - and the social care thing matters. Reform are not a political party - they are a populist voice shouted into the echo chamber. They have no offer of substance and they DO conflate immigration and rape gangs and islam constantly as it is a popular sentiment among those who have no real idea what the numbers are. Nigel Farage is a career bullshitter, and the fact anyone thinks he is offering an alternative is beyond deluded. He is the face of the money people, not an agitator determined to destroy the social order. All he has done is help progress the speed at which the wealthy can extract wealth from the poor. Nothing has accelerated that quite as much as Brexit and the relaxing of access to visas for people in low skilled work.

And if you can’t see the hypocrisy of a Times journalist gaslighting ‘liberal elites’, when really the people who have been tanking the country have been the banking class, then I don’t know what to say.

Too many people set in their visions and calling out the other with "woods for trees" talk. I will leave you all to return to your back patting and see no hear no mindsets.

Farage not being the messiah and Brexit not being what you want does not make the Times article any less true. It isn't bigging up Farage. It is quite simply talking about a divide in society itself and especially between those that have the levers of power and those that have the least say in anything other than a vote!

But hey ho. stick to moaning about Brexit and Farage and maybe that will eventually save us all from whatever Farage's party is called at the next election.

Maybe repackage the message so it sounds different like Archers says. After all that has worked so well.

Meanwhile we have a PM taking the fight to reform by pretending to be reform. lol. Alienating the base that might still want to vote for him while all the time he is about to sign freedom of movement in again (repackaged, remessaged .) This week "numbers must come down" next week "It won't be many." Remember Blair said that when he (they) knew full well what they were up to. Who is it doesn't like Brown faces? Kier getting tough on the non EUs today (words only of course) and next week the welcome mat returns for the whitey folks of Europe.

Hang on. Need to close the curtains as the rozzers are parked in the street. Might want to look for anything "brexity" in my house and maybe GCHQ monitoring has alerted them to my off the chart right wing views.

 

[......loading......]

Too many people set in their visions and calling out the other with "woods for trees" talk. I will leave you all to return to your back patting and see no hear no mindsets.

Farage not being the messiah and Brexit not being what you want does not make the Times article any less true. It isn't bigging up Farage. It is quite simply talking about a divide in society itself and especially between those that have the levers of power and those that have the least say in anything other than a vote!

But hey ho. stick to moaning about Brexit and Farage and maybe that will eventually save us all from whatever Farage's party is called at the next election.

Maybe repackage the message so it sounds different like Archers says. After all that has worked so well.

Meanwhile we have a PM taking the fight to reform by pretending to be reform. lol. Alienating the base that might still want to vote for him while all the time he is about to sign freedom of movement in again (repackaged, remessaged .) This week "numbers must come down" next week "It won't be many." Remember Blair said that when he (they) knew full well what they were up to. Who is it doesn't like Brown faces? Kier getting tough on the non EUs today (words only of course) and next week the welcome mat returns for the whitey folks of Europe.

Now you are just projecting. Why do you always project all the way back to New Labour when the Tory party have ****ed this country like nobody else in my lifetime. And let’s be clear, it is the impact of UKIP, of the Brexit Party, that has turned the Tory party into a mess. Farage and his crew are given constant airtime and not nearly enough criticism for the debasement of our political system in the UK.

Do I think people are bellends for agreeing with some Reform policies? Absolutely not. But believing anything positive is offered by that corrupt little group of self-serving grifters so much that you would call yourself a Reform supporter… yeah, that makes you a bellend. Because not one person can tell me they know what Reform want to do or how they will do it. They are just soaking up the messaging from X and the Mail.

 

[ImpSaint]

Now you are just projecting. Why do you always project all the way back to New Labour when the Tory party have ****ed this country like nobody else in my lifetime. And let’s be clear, it is the impact of UKIP, of the Brexit Party, that has turned the Tory party into a mess. Farage and his crew are given constant airtime and not nearly enough criticism for the debasement of our political system in the UK.

Do I think people are bellends for agreeing with some Reform policies? Absolutely not. But believing anything positive is offered by that corrupt little group of self-serving grifters so much that you would call yourself a Reform supporter… yeah, that makes you a bellend. Because not one person can tell me they know what Reform want to do or how they will do it. They are just soaking up the messaging from X and the Mail.

Because this all started at Maastricht. Before Blair but Blair was the main instigator of the problem we are now in with no way to return. Major and the Tory rebels set things in motion and Blair took it up with gusto.

We are all so used to "cheap treats" now that there is no way back. No one is gonna give up their treats in return for the trickle up stopping and it will continue to treat the tax purse as a source of revenue to divert to the fat cats.

And on the reform bit of "not being able to tell anything about what they want to do" is mirrored by the other lots where people can parrot all they like the words of what those parties say they are gonna / want to do...........but they won't. Just words. Politicians do not do anything they say they will do anymore. Not unless it is peanuts stuff and doesn't affect their money syphons. Keep borrowing more so the fat cats can get their interest. Keep ploughing into Quangos and other businesses to do the work so the fatcats can pull even more out.

Tories following Blair just followed his lead. Cameron was Blairite for the noughty tens. As the years go each successor to the crown has to find ever more visible ways to steal the public purse and divert the money. IT will continue to get worse.

 

[Ian Thumwood]

Imp

I don't agree with your post but it is well considered. There are tqo major flaws to your argument.

1. That a Farage government will be able to govern. We ready have Reform counsellors being investigated for racist commemts. They are a partt of bigots who , like the TUC say , have hoodwinked the worming classes.

2. Immigration is caused by the unequiry betweeb Western countries the developing and the failure of the West to redistribute wealth , assist with good governance and rectify the unequalities of empire. It is a problwm of capitalism's making. Any African who does not want to come to the West for a better life is bonkers

I would like Reform sent to the developing world as see how they can improve it.

Immigration in uk is not a Brexit issue. Usa anf Australia have the same issues as does Europe. The cause is capitalism.

 

[ImpSaint]

Imp

I don't agree with your post but it is well considered. There are tqo major flaws to your argument.

1. That a Farage government will be able to govern. We ready have Reform counsellors being investigated for racist commemts. They are a partt of bigots who , like the TUC say , have hoodwinked the worming classes.

2. Immigration is caused by the unequiry betweeb Western countries the developing and the failure of the West to redistribute wealth , assist with good governance and rectify the unequalities of empire. It is a problwm of capitalism's making. Any African who does not want to come to the West for a better life is bonkers

I would like Reform sent to the developing world as see how they can improve it.

Immigration in uk is not a Brexit issue. Usa anf Australia have the same issues as does Europe. The cause is capitalism.

There are people in every party that are under investigation for racism or any other number of things. Just look at what Labour folks were saying in their "secret" whatsapp group. Of course there are bad eggs in Reform just like the other parties.

I know what causes immigration however we can't look after the whole world. Empire cannot be used forever as a guilt trip. We left infrastructure there as well as doing bad stuff but we cannot continually talk of empire after all. India is one of the biggest players going now! Should Portugal feel guilty for their part? Maybe pay reparations to Brazil? Should Spain give up all their economy to pay back for what they did in South America? Its a never ending thing it seems but only for "British Empire"

And yes of course capitalism (or more simply £££ $$$$) is the problem. Unfortunately life isn't free unless you own your own self sustaining island so of course people will always look for the pot of gold. Its unfortunate that so many come here thinking they will be so much better off only to find "Everything is so expensive in the UK" and often they are not that much better off albeit not the case for very poor countries. I completely agree with you but still it can't be a never ending open door.

Capitalism is a poor causation argument really because what is the alternative? Universal income sort of socialism? They will still come because thats $$$. Communism? They'll go somewhere else because that's only nice in theory and won't stay that way long before someone breaks ranks and then someone(s) have to be in charge to keep the order and then communism fails. But hey, that solves the immigration issue. lets do it

The whole "capitalism" argument gets lost in the model that most wester democracies exercise. It is welfare capitalism and no-one seems to have any realistic alternative to it. Human Nature will always destroy any alternative because too many people will always want more and break the socialist or communist structure.

I of course refer to communism as the ideology and not what it turns into. As in if it were even possible that everybody was dialled in and happy to be equal in everything and there was never and dissent nor jealousy or greed.

The reality of the problem underlying most of our problems and including immigration is like I have said many many times.....human nature!

p.s. I never said that a Farage government would be able to govern

 

[BlackAndAmberGambler]

Probably unpopular but I don't think they should go to prison.

Prisons are incredibly full and people convicted of child sex offences don't even go to prison so I don't think people should be jailed for criminal damage.

Hefty fine and a few hundred hours of community service would be more appropriate.

Just saw their legs off and see how they like it.

 

[StJabbo1]

Probably unpopular but I don't think they should go to prison.

Prisons are incredibly full and people convicted of child sex offences don't even go to prison so I don't think people should be jailed for criminal damage.

Hefty fine and a few hundred hours of community service would be more appropriate.

May be so and/or restricted to some form of curfew. The current custodial approach clearly isn't working, locking them up and throwing away the key is a failure. There are other more successful systems in place elsewhere looking at those and seeing what measures would apply to the UK is a step forward.

 

[The Ides of March]

Labour, the Greens, Lib Dems and even Reform should be targetting Johnson's awful Brexit deal in.particular and terrible decisions taken during his tenure at number 10 in general. This guy is getting a free ride while Farage is the fall guy for Brexit and the fallout of a rise in anti-immigration attitudes arising.from this. You.see him smirking from the sidelines waiting his opportunity to return centre stage when Kemi inevitably falls on her sword. Beware the very toxic Johnson and take him.to task as much as possible. He is the enemy, Farage is the stooge.

 

[ImpSaint]

Labour, the Greens, Lib Dems and even Reform should be targetting Johnson's awful Brexit deal in.particular and terrible decisions taken during his tenure at number 10 in general. This guy is getting a free ride while Farage is the fall guy for Brexit and the fallout of a rise in anti-immigration attitudes arising.from this. You.see him smirking from the sidelines waiting his opportunity to return centre stage when Kemi inevitably falls on her sword. Beware the very toxic Johnson and take him.to task as much as possible. He is the enemy, Farage is the stooge.

I think Reform are well aware of the Boris threat, and far from being Boris' stooge seeing as he has been talking to Dominic Cummings who is also a long way from Boris' line of thinking.