Off Topic Politics Thread

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Well you did actually.

First you implied that I said it was only Muslims carrying weapons which is one of the most absurd things I've ever read on this thread.

Then you said I was bringing up two tier when I clearly said it was a nonsense.

And now you're pulling out the race card saying I hold Asians to a different standard

This is exactly what I was talking about on Saturday; people's inability to debate sensibly on this issue has HUGELY played a part in why we are where we are. You're part of the problem.

I don't believe violence should ever justify further violence. If a Muslim commits a terrorist attack that doesn't give people the right to attack a mosque or other Muslims. If racist ****s attack a mosque that doesn't give the worshippers the right to go out tooled up.

If someone attacked me in my home then yes I would defend myself within my home. I wouldn't then grab a baseball bat or a machete and start patrolling the streets looking for people who look similar to the offenders.

No different standards whatsoever. If you have an offensive weapon in public you should be arrested and charged with the offence that constitutes. No ifs, no buts.

Ok, agree but you are also ignoring my point. This is not a normal situation and the main job of the police is to keep peace. There would be no weapons if white people weren’t threatening violence and the police have to take that into account. They do the same when a load of white chavs come into their gardens with baseball bats about some silly row.

I think you are taking my points personally and they are not meant that way. Also one of the people I was replying to clearly said it IS two-tiered policing.

Again, this is not the time to shine a light on asian people. White people need to stand together abd reject white racism- no ifs or buts.

We can deal with asian issues when asians instigate things. Right now is not the time.

 

[Saints FC 76]

I haven’t misinterpreted you. I think you are holding the asian community up to an unreasonable standard on this one. If someone threatened you, your family, your business and your place of worship, you might well react the same way as the muslims. And the police have no way to react apart from asking them not to.

I think this is a lot if what-aboutery from people too insecure to admit this is 100% white english thugs kicking up **** and want asians to share some of the blame.

The asians would not have weapons out if white people did not attack them. The police could deal with asians with weapons if white people weren’t out rioting.

Well you did actually.

First you implied that I said it was only Muslims carrying weapons which is one of the most absurd things I've ever read on this thread.

Then you said I was bringing up two tier when I clearly said it was a nonsense.

And now you're pulling out the race card saying I hold Asians to a different standard

This is exactly what I was talking about on Saturday; people's inability to debate sensibly on this issue has HUGELY played a part in why we are where we are. You're part of the problem.

I don't believe violence should ever justify further violence. If a Muslim commits a terrorist attack that doesn't give people the right to attack a mosque or other Muslims. If racist ****s attack a mosque that doesn't give the worshippers the right to go out tooled up.

If someone attacked me in my home then yes I would defend myself within my home. I wouldn't then grab a baseball bat or a machete and start patrolling the streets looking for people who look similar to the offenders.

No different standards whatsoever. If you have an offensive weapon in public you should be arrested and charged with the offence that constitutes. No ifs, no buts.

I'm pretty sure it's illegal to carry a weapon, so kindly asking people to put their weapons down just inflates the two-tier narrative, (as does running away from rioters in Harehills). So I do find it difficult to class the two-tier thing as nonsense sometimes.

 

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I get what you're saying, but there's an element of what I was speaking about before in here, which is our tendency to self-flaggelate - it must be all the fault of the nasty white Brits, and no blame must be passed on to the Muslim people, we're just not being understanding enough. I know that's not what you're actually saying, but there's an element of that. I'd also avoid calling them the "asian community" as pretty much every asian I know hates being lumped into this. This is a specifically Muslim thing, no matter how much we'd like to avoid calling it so (see original point).

What is happening this week is not a muslim thing. It is a white thing. You can’t choose now to start picking at Muslim issues. It just isn’t right.

 

[Le Tissier's Laces]

What is happening this week is not a muslim thing. It is a white thing. You can’t choose now to start picking at Muslim issues. It just isn’t right.

It is, absolutely. But it stems from a long held issue with the Muslim situation.

 

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It is, absolutely. But it stems from a long held issue with the Muslim situation.

“The muslim situation”.

We all need to be careful with our rhetoric. Certain aspects of certain subsections of muslim culture are difficult for British people- me included - but there is no single muslim situation which we can solve.

The “poor white people situation” is the biggest issue facing our society.

 

[San Tejón]

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[Libby]

Ok, agree but you are also ignoring my point. This is not a normal situation and the main job of the police is to keep peace. There would be no weapons if white people weren’t threatening violence and the police have to take that into account. They do the same when a load of white chavs come into their gardens with baseball bats about some silly row.

I think you are taking my points personally and they are not meant that way. Also one of the people I was replying to clearly said it IS two-tiered policing.

Again, this is not the time to shine a light on asian people. White people need to stand together abd reject white racism- no ifs or buts.

We can deal with asian issues when asians instigate things. Right now is not the time.

Thank you. I appreciate you reading and acknowledging that.

Yes someone did but you mentioned it in a direct response to one of my messages. If you're taking about somebody else's message when replying to me perhaps you should say so to avoid confusion?

I agree that the police are in a ****ty situation and overran, especially given the way their numbers have been cut over the years. I believe this is partly why the number of arrests have been remarkably low so far given the scale of disorder.

To clarify further I am not shining a light on Asian people as you call it. I simply said I found it astonishing that there were people on the street with weapons who weren't threatened with arrest. Even if they lack the manpower to make the arrests there and then they can go back and do so.

 

[thereisonlyoneno7]

I think you are both right.

The current issues are a white thug thing against Muslims (or indeed anyone who potentially could look like they are Muslim).

The underlying issue is a minority of Muslims that either break the law or try to force Muslim values on the rest of us.

Unfortunately, it is a minority (on both sides actually, as 99.9% of the white British population aren't thugs), but it is a case of the loudest or 'more media worthy' get noticed. And then social media amplifies it with fake news.

 

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Thank you. I appreciate you reading and acknowledging that.

Yes someone did but you mentioned it in a direct response to one of my messages. If you're taking about somebody else's message when replying to me perhaps you should say so to avoid confusion?

I agree that the police are in a ****ty situation and overran, especially given the way their numbers have been cut over the years. I believe this is partly why the number of arrests have been remarkably low so far given the scale of disorder.

To clarify further I am not shining a light on Asian people as you call it. I simply said I found it astonishing that there were people on the street with weapons who weren't threatened with arrest. Even if they lack the manpower to make the arrests there and can they can go back and do so.

Honestly, I appreciate the sentiment but you do need to look at this from a police perspective. If we let them stand around defending their **** they will be appeased. Some have weapons, blood is hot, ask the community to sort it. These people don’t trust the police. We could have a double riot.

If this did not all come from white racist rioting I would 100% agree with you, but context is everything.

 

[Libby]

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Sounds good but will do nothing in reality. People are out there risking serious jail time so I don't see this being any sort of deterrent.

 

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Sounds good but will do nothing in reality. People are out there risking serious jail time so I don't see this being any sort of deterrent.

I do think Liverpool and Everton are treated as the heart of their communities and them saying we as a community leader disapprove does help a bit.

 

[Saints FC 76]

Ok, agree but you are also ignoring my point. This is not a normal situation and the main job of the police is to keep peace. There would be no weapons if white people weren’t threatening violence and the police have to take that into account. They do the same when a load of white chavs come into their gardens with baseball bats about some silly row.

I think you are taking my points personally and they are not meant that way. Also one of the people I was replying to clearly said it IS two-tiered policing.

Again, this is not the time to shine a light on asian people. White people need to stand together abd reject white racism- no ifs or buts.

We can deal with asian issues when asians instigate things. Right now is not the time.

Thank you. I appreciate you reading and acknowledging that.

Yes someone did but you mentioned it in a direct response to one of my messages. If you're taking about somebody else's message when replying to me perhaps you should say so to avoid confusion?

I agree that the police are in a ****ty situation and overran, especially given the way their numbers have been cut over the years. I believe this is partly why the number of arrests have been remarkably low so far given the scale of disorder.

To clarify further I am not shining a light on Asian people as you call it. I simply said I found it astonishing that there were people on the street with weapons who weren't threatened with arrest. Even if they lack the manpower to make the arrests there and can they can go back and do so.

That was me that mentioned the two-tier thing in my first post. I was complaining that Starmer only condemned the rioters, and not all the criminality that we saw (e.g. people carrying weapons around town centres).

I try and steer clear of the news though, so maybe I've got the wrong end of the stick. Happy to hear more about your thoughts on it.

 

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I

That was me that mentioned the two-tier thing in my first post. I was complaining that Starmer only condemned the rioters, and not all the criminality that we saw (e.g. people carrying weapons around town centres).

I try and steer clear of the news though, so maybe I've got the wrong end of the stick. Happy to hear more about your thoughts on it.

My personal view is this is not the time to condemn those who feel persecuted. Being a minority during race riots cannot be easy.

 

[Libby]

Honestly, I appreciate the sentiment but you do need to look at this from a police perspective. If we let them stand around defending their **** they will be appeased. Some have weapons, blood is hot, ask the community to sort it. These people don’t trust the police. We could have a double riot.

If this did not all come from white racist rioting I would 100% agree with you, but context is everything.

Fair enough. We're probably not as far apart as it seems and the discussion would likely flow much better in person rather than written form.

That said I think we're at risk of going in circles from here so I think we'll just agree to disagree on this particular issue.

 

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Fair enough. We're probably not as far apart as it seems and the discussion would likely flow much better in person rather than written form.

That said I think we're at risk of going in circles from here so I think we'll just agree to disagree on this particular issue.

I don’t want to see anyone with weapons either. This is just pragmatism. I don’t find anything anyone has said offensive, to be clear. Hard to have a civilised chat in text form, as you say!

 

[LincolnSaint]

Thank you. I appreciate you reading and acknowledging that.

Yes someone did but you mentioned it in a direct response to one of my messages. If you're taking about somebody else's message when replying to me perhaps you should say so to avoid confusion?

I agree that the police are in a ****ty situation and overran, especially given the way their numbers have been cut over the years. I believe this is partly why the number of arrests have been remarkably low so far given the scale of disorder.

To clarify further I am not shining a light on Asian people as you call it. I simply said I found it astonishing that there were people on the street with weapons who weren't threatened with arrest. Even if they lack the manpower to make the arrests there and can they can go back and do so.

I'm going to bang the same drum as I did with the Manchester Airport story. Police comms are awful. Really really awful. Some of it is constricted by law (I.e. releasing BWV, CCTV) and some of it as a remnant of days gone by where they could just bell their pet journo and have a story in the local/national news, exactly as they want it. The police are so far behind with modern social media and it shames me to admit it, but a part of it is arrogance from the brass of "we'll decide what people need to know" or believing any information publicly addressed can negatively effect operational effectiveness, without realising millions of people have already read an agitators version of events.

Most of the claims of two-tier policing could be cleared up if people realised
A) There are ****ing loads of different police forces. Just because the Met might deal with an incident one way, does not mean West Mercia would do the same (due to numbers for a start)

B) There's a huge difference between public order responses for spontaneous disorder (Leeds) and pre planned operations (Football, Marches, Protests)

C) The planning for these events aren't secret. The briefings are all recorded for evidence. There's not a gold commander sat there saying, **** it lads, it's the EDL, get the big sticks out. All of the decisions from the amount of PSU officers deployed to the kit they wear HAS to be noted against a decision log. It's what carries the most risk. While 200k marching in London can cause disruption its generally permitted. 40 carrying out violence and destruction of property won't.

D) And the bit which is really pissing me off, is the fact that there is not a magic pool of the rufty tufty squad. Apart from the massive forces almost all of those officers are response/NH. Whilst they're chasing Darren out of looting Greggs, there's 999 calls not being answered, and then they'll be blamed next week for not sorting out domestic violence

 

[Libby]

Talking of arrest numbers I had a look at Wiki (I know!) yesterday and saw that there were 3000 arrests in the first five days of 2011.

Now I know a lot of that discrepancy will be down to the lack of police numbers as I mentioned earlier, but I can't help feel there's also a football like approach here of just gathering evidence and knocking on doors later.

Problem is I don't think that works as well for wide scale disorder. With football it's generally a short time period and confined to one area whereas what we're facing now is multiple flashpoints across large areas and multiple days.

And I feel that emboldens people seeing videos of people committing serious disorder while police simply watch on. Now I'm not suggesting it's practical to go piling in as it's clearly not but there has to be a line drawn somewhere. There was a video the other day of people setting fire to a shop with dwellings above it and the police doing nothing about it. That's absurd imo.

The other consideration is that I suspect many police know they're on camera and are worried about accusations of brutality if they go heavy handed.

Either way I think it's time for a change in tactic. I don't think the prison sentences will happen quickly enough and in sufficient numbers to quell this in the immediate future.

Get the tear gas out imo.

 

[LincolnSaint]

Talking of arrest numbers I had a look at Wiki (I know!) yesterday and saw that there were 3000 arrests in the first five days of 2011.

Now I know a lot of that discrepancy will be down to the lack of police numbers as I mentioned earlier, but I can't help feel there's also a football like approach here of just gathering evidence and knocking on doors later.

Problem is I don't think that works as well for wide scale disorder. With football it's generally a short time period and confined to one area whereas what we're facing now is multiple flashpoints across large areas and multiple days.

And I feel that emboldens people seeing videos of people committing serious disorder while police simply watch on. Now I'm not suggesting it's practical to go piling in as it's clearly not but there has to be a line drawn somewhere. There was a video the other day of people setting fire to a shop with dwellings above it and the police doing nothing about it. That's absurd imo.

The other consideration is that I suspect many police know they're on camera and are worried about accusations of brutality if they go heavy handed.

Either way I think it's time for a change in tactic. I don't think the prison sentences will happen quickly enough and in sufficient numbers to quell this in the immediate future.

Get the tear gas out imo.

Sadly you're 100% bang on.

 

[Big Ern]

Talking of arrest numbers I had a look at Wiki (I know!) yesterday and saw that there were 3000 arrests in the first five days of 2011.

Now I know a lot of that discrepancy will be down to the lack of police numbers as I mentioned earlier, but I can't help feel there's also a football like approach here of just gathering evidence and knocking on doors later.

Problem is I don't think that works as well for wide scale disorder. With football it's generally a short time period and confined to one area whereas what we're facing now is multiple flashpoints across large areas and multiple days.

And I feel that emboldens people seeing videos of people committing serious disorder while police simply watch on. Now I'm not suggesting it's practical to go piling in as it's clearly not but there has to be a line drawn somewhere. There was a video the other day of people setting fire to a shop with dwellings above it and the police doing nothing about it. That's absurd imo.

The other consideration is that I suspect many police know they're on camera and are worried about accusations of brutality if they go heavy handed.

Either way I think it's time for a change in tactic. I don't think the prison sentences will happen quickly enough and in sufficient numbers to quell this in the immediate future.

Get the tear gas out imo.

yeah, 2011 I watched it all start in Croydon because I wanted a cup of tea but had run out of milk, just as it all was starting. The Police stood around and watched it all when they could've easily stopped it. The atmosphere was ****ing weird, it wasn't violent at all, crowds on the street watching it all, not in fear but more like a carnival of thievery. They were waiting for the police to stop it, when they realised they were going to do nothing, they all joined in.
A few hours later houses and businesses were burning down.

 

[Libby]

378 arrests so far in past week.