Off Topic Politics Thread

[Gregm1988]

Here are some of Tate's statements:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/08/21/andrew-tate-tiktok-instagram/

"If you put yourself in a position to be raped, you must bear some responsibility"

'He has claimed that he needs authority over the women he dates, saying, “You can’t be responsible for a dog if it doesn’t obey you.” He has said he would attack a woman who accused him of cheating and described himself as “absolutely a misogynist.”'

Among videos that gained traction was one in which he advised his followers to “slap, slap, grab, choke” women in the bedroom and another in which he said he dates 18- and 19-year-olds because it’s easier to leave an “imprint” on them.

https://www.theguardian.com/technol...violent-misogynistic-world-of-tiktok-new-star

“I inflict, I expect, absolute loyalty from my woman,” he says. “I ain’t having my chicks talking to other dudes, liking other dudes. My chicks don’t go to the club without me, they are at home.”

"if a woman is going out with a man, she belongs to that man"


His whole shtick is being violently misogynistic.

All of those quotes back up my view as to some of the reasons he pitched up in Romania. Beyond the more relaxed laws

 

[Gregm1988]

People talk about it quite a bit, and have taken it seriously for quite a long time? Here are several years worth of articles on the radicalization of young men in these spaces:

https://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/the-rage-of-the-incels

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/09/world/americas/incels-toronto-attack.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...tle-known-ideology-behind-the-toronto-attack/

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...l-far-right-ecosystem-of-angry-young-men.html

https://www.vox.com/the-highlight/2019/4/16/18287446/incel-definition-reddit

https://www.technologyreview.com/20...ting-more-toxic-as-angry-men-join-the-incels/



As all of the above note, at its heart it isn't about getting sex, it's about a vision of male supremacy and absolute authority over women. And responding violently when they do not submit. All of which is what Tate openly espouses.

I don’t have time right now to read all those links but I can tell from some of the sources and titles that they are missing the mark and/or focusing on a sub group

“Far right incels”. This is wrong. There is a phd researcher who has studied this and found there are more left wing incels than right (at least by self identification). And there is a disproportionate amount from minority backgrounds. So again - counter to the right wing narrative (usually aligning it with white nationalism)

Point is - there are far more incels than most realise. But a smaller number than this total are misogynistic as a result. And an even smaller number are potentially violent. But it is this final group that is what is focused on. And indeed what most people seem to mean when using the word. And the focus is disproportionate considering the impact of both this sub group and the general potential impact of the larger group as a whole

 

[Osvaldorama]

Merry Christmas!

Ok, so you aren’t wrong that we live in a world where mankind has been able to specialise and to grow exponentially. I agree capitalism promotes that. However, you say people now are free. That is an illusion. Free to do what? Most of us will spend our lives indentured to a system which offers very little capacity for personal growth. Social mobility is at an all time low. That is not a sign of economic freedom. In fact the growth of individuals is more and more a detriment to the masses. Wealth is being sucked out of the commonwealth and in its place is poverty and misery. Worse, individual successes hide the frutility of most people’s lives and encourage the masses to continue being docile sheep of the system.

I am really worried about your inequality is natural idea. It sounds like the great chain of being. It sounds like birthright. It sounds a lot like the poor are poor because they are lazy drunks. These ideas have been propagated for thousands of years - but they are just an other excuse for the rich to double down on their position. Why help the poor when they will just waste it?

We do not live in a society with equal opportunity for all. If you are born poor you are more likely to stay poor than at any moment in the last 300 years. Just look up some basic figures. We are so horrendously divided over wealth that people in one of the world’s wealthiest countries need food banks to survive.

Capitalism justifies the I am alright, Jack attitude that make Conservativism the central political ideology of the UK.

Sorry, just seen this.

I think this is a very “glass half empty” way to view society. The specialisation and growth is not a small thing. Like I said, it’s bordering on miraculous that society even functions when you consider how violent and crazy humans are individually. I think many people severely underestimate the current system and just how terrible the alternatives are. (That’s not to say things are perfect. There are many, many problems.)

When I say free, I can easily explain what I mean: we have property rights, protected by law. This is the single most important thing that capitalism provides, and throughout human history this is exceptionally rare. For centuries we were slaves, serfs or worse.

While you see wealth being sucked out of countries (and I do agree that this is happening - but its not a direct result of capitalism itself imo).
I find it sad you think most peoples lives are futile. But in my experience it’s possible in our society to go from the very bottom to the very top if you work hard and study the right things.

The inequality is natural idea is pretty simple for me to explain to. It’s nothing to do with blaming the poor etc. Quite simply; when you are born, you are born with nothing. Every single ‘right’ that we take for granted is actually a ‘responsibility’ for someone else.

I also agree that wealth inequality is absolutely terrible and getting worse. But again I disagree that the capitalist system is the root cause. I believe that the root cause is the cantillion effect of the broken money system.

Essentially I believe: capitalism is great. However, the ability for governments & banks to print & create money from thin air has destroyed capitalism. The price incentives are now all completely wrong from the central banks outward into the wider economy, and this leads to many of the problems we all clearly see.

 

[Schad]

And right on cue, Andrew Tate is arrested for human trafficking.

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Edit: Greta really did catch a body.

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[saintrichie123]

He really is a nasty piece of work.

 

[Schad]

Wonder if he'll reevaluate his stance that reading is for losers now that he'll have an awful lot of time on his hands, and no electronic devices.

Probably not.

 

[Gregm1988]

Wonder if he'll reevaluate his stance that reading is for losers now that he'll have an awful lot of time on his hands, and no electronic devices.

Probably not.

You might be getting ahead of yourself. He needs to be charged and found guilty. And very wealthy people tend to be able to avoid such things

 

[Le Tissier's Laces]

Women already get equal treatment to men in the West in pretty much every way.

Tate is hilarious and absolutely correct in a lot of what he says if you take the time to listen to him instead of judging based on headlines. (Although I also disagree with some of his more extreme views).

He is very clever at getting a reaction out of people by winding people up. Notice how you are all talking about him? Trump level knowledge of the attention economy

Imagine for a moment if we had Twitter and TikTok in the 1930s.

“Hitler says an awful lot of things that are absolutely correct, though I disagree with some of his more extreme views”.

It’s nowhere near as big a psychological leap as you might think. And it’s a big problem.

 

[Schad]

You might be getting ahead of yourself. He needs to be charged and found guilty. And very wealthy people tend to be able to avoid such things

They certainly do. Though it's an open question whether he'll get bail, given that he is the absolute definition of a flight risk.

 

[Schad]

Imagine for a moment if we had Twitter and TikTok in the 1930s.

“Hitler says an awful lot of things that are absolutely correct, though I disagree with some of his more extreme views”.

It’s nowhere near as big a psychological leap as you might think. And it’s a big problem.

Hell, you don't even need Twitter/TikTok. A lot of contemporary news articles said exactly that. Here's an infamous one from the New York Times:

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Those sorts of 'extreme views' should be a dealbreaker. There are plenty of people who'll lecture you on personal responsibility or whatever while also not being alarmingly misogynistic. And if it isn't a dealbreaker for some, it's worth asking why.

 

[Le Tissier's Laces]

Hell, you don't even need Twitter/TikTok. A lot of contemporary news articles said exactly that. Here's an infamous one from the New York Times:

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Those sorts of 'extreme views' should be a dealbreaker. There are plenty of people who'll lecture you on personal responsibility or whatever while also not being alarmingly misogynistic. And if it isn't a dealbreaker for some, it's worth asking why.

100%. I’m just going to wait to be told that I’m making a ridiculous comparison though, even though it really, really isn’t ridiculous.

 

[Osvaldorama]

Innocent until proven guilty. I hope it’s not true, but if it is I hope he goes down for a long time.

One thing that seems weird though. People seem more angry at Tate already than they are at Bill Clinton and Prince Andrew etc. who have paid women to be silent. Definitely feels like there are different media agendas here. The news of his arrest has been spread so quickly by a load of media accounts.

Comparing Tate to Hitler is a ridiculous comparison, if you actually listened to him.

 

[Gregm1988]

They certainly do. Though it's an open question whether he'll get bail, given that he is the absolute definition of a flight risk.

Twitter is amusing (albeit alarming) in relation to this story. So many people questioning the legitimacy of the story. And others thinking it is all a conspiracy against him. So many apologists. It’s bizarre

 

[Le Tissier's Laces]

Innocent until proven guilty. I hope it’s not true, but if it is I hope he goes down for a long time.

One thing that seems weird though. People seem more angry at Tate already than they are at Bill Clinton and Prince Andrew etc. who have paid women to be silent. Definitely feels like there are different media agendas here. The news of his arrest has been spread so quickly by a load of media accounts.

Comparing Tate to Hitler is a ridiculous comparison, if you actually listened to him.

It’s not actually ridiculous, but it is an extreme comparison. You should be able to see why allowing extreme viewpoints like he has, just because “some of what he says is right” is extraordinarily problematic though, and therefore why the Hitler comparison isn’t actually ridiculous.

 

[Gregm1988]

Innocent until proven guilty. I hope it’s not true, but if it is I hope he goes down for a long time.

One thing that seems weird though. People seem more angry at Tate already than they are at Bill Clinton and Prince Andrew etc. who have paid women to be silent. Definitely feels like there are different media agendas here. The news of his arrest has been spread so quickly by a load of media accounts.

Comparing Tate to Hitler is a ridiculous comparison, if you actually listened to him.

Based on the accusations - Tate is an accuser trafficker and would be setting things up for guys like the other two. Prince Andrew and Clinton are on the consumer end. In this analogy he is closer to Epstein and Maxwell than Prince Andrew

And you seem to be disingenuously underplaying the negative reaction to Prince Andrew. I don’t recall him having defenders at all (but maybe I am misremembering). Clinton is a different story. Perhaps you are just misremembering part of the reaction - like how everyone mocked and laughed at the Pizza express and “can’t sweat” claims because they were ludicrous. Doesn’t mean people weren’t pretty strongly against him

 

[Osvaldorama]

It’s not actually ridiculous, but it is an extreme comparison. You should be able to see why allowing extreme viewpoints like he has, just because “some of what he says is right” is extraordinarily problematic though, and therefore why the Hitler comparison isn’t actually ridiculous.

So you are against free speech?

Which of his specific views is so dangerous that he shouldn’t be allowed to speak?

 

[Le Tissier's Laces]

Innocent until proven guilty. I hope it’s not true, but if it is I hope he goes down for a long time.

One thing that seems weird though. People seem more angry at Tate already than they are at Bill Clinton and Prince Andrew etc. who have paid women to be silent. Definitely feels like there are different media agendas here. The news of his arrest has been spread so quickly by a load of media accounts.

Comparing Tate to Hitler is a ridiculous comparison, if you actually listened to him.

There’s literally a programme on tonight ripping the piss out of Andrew. People are “more” angry (seemingly) because Tate’s whole bullshit schtick is about being proud and boasting about this stuff. That’s kinda really making a rod for his own back. Your comment re media response is predictably weird and based on nothing. Media sources reporting media story?

 

[Le Tissier's Laces]

So you are against free speech?

Which of his specific views is so dangerous that he shouldn’t be allowed to speak?

I’m not against free speech at all, sorry to over excite you, I just worded that poorly. My point is that you accept him as an individual, and his ‘extreme viewpoints’ with a wave of the hand because a lot of what he says is okay. That’s problematic, and you should maybe have a good old think about that.

PS - you can still read Mein Kampf, rightly so. There’s no cancelling of free speech amongst adults. What an adult wouldn’t do though, is amplify Hitler as being a good egg despite what’s in the book.

 

[Schad]

There’s literally a programme on tonight ripping the piss out of Andrew. People are “more” angry (seemingly) because Tate’s whole bullshit schtick is about being proud and boasting about this stuff. That’s kinda really making a rod for his own back. Your comment re media response is predictably weird and based on nothing. Media sources reporting media story?

Yeah, 'guy who spends his career trying to gin up media coverage (and basically bragging about being a human trafficker) gets a whole bunch of media coverage after getting arrested for human trafficking' isn't really a story of media bias. It's a story of getting hoisted on your own petard.

 

[Le Tissier's Laces]

Yeah, 'guy who spends his career trying to gin up media coverage (and basically bragging about being a human trafficker) gets a whole bunch of media coverage after getting arrested for human trafficking' isn't really a story of media bias. It's a story of getting hoisted on your own petard.

Schadenfreude proves popular once again…