Pirelli still thinking

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DHCanary said:
I like the Pirelli idea, although it would widen the gap between the midfield and the front runners.

Currently, most races Red Bull, Ferrari and Mclaren get both drivers through Q2 on prime tyres, whilst the rest of the field are usually forced to use options. Potentially 4 drivers get through Q2 on soft tyres. If they choose to sit out Q3, they get free tyre choice meaning they can have fresh options and run a longer first stint, when the most ground is to be made, or mix up their strategy slightly, which gets them closer to the front 3 teams. If they are forced to start on their Q2 tyres, that removes the first stint advantage, and they have no extra option tyres for the race anyway.

We might end up with a situation where Mercedes, Force India, Sauber, whoever, decide which tyres they want to start the race on, and then crawl round the track, taking as little life out of the tyres as possible, to get the tyres they want to start the race on (No 107% rule in Q3 at the moment). This could be potentially dangerous, and is more likely to increase the chances of ruining the lap of someone with a genuine shot at pole.

I think the problem with a Quali tyre is that it would behave differently to the option and prime, and the teams would have little previous data on it. The set up could be completely different, which would make maxing the performance available tricky (although I guess that plays into the hands of the likes of Hamilton, rather than Button). Whilst they could be given a few sets of Quali tyres for free practice, working out the best set-up for the Quali tyres means less time spent on race set-up, and it would also really increase costs of tyres. If Quali tyres only gave one lap of maximum grip, then the teams would need 4, 5 or even more sets per driver to generate data that was even remotely meaningful.
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I don't know how I missed this excellent post from DHCanary before. (My apologies DHC). Initially, the first sentence seems out of place, but when seen in the context of the logic that follows it, I realise he has made a very good point indeed.

chrispa76 said:
I'd like to have the old qualify system back. Where you qualified by the best time you set during any of the practice sessions. That would both solve this problem and bring great excitement through all sessions.
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Unfortunately that would not solve the problem Chris, since a team could set a blistering time on their very first lap (especially in changeable conditions), and decide to sit out the rest of Qualifying completely.

But there is another possible solution: if a team decides to sit out a session, why not simply deprive them of one set of the faster compound tyre? This would instantly negate the advantage they are currently seeking, and leave them no reason whatever to continue to spoil the show. It would mean they might as well go out and try, because if they don't, they'll be one set short. After all, a worn tyre is surely better than no tyre…

 
To bring back a old thread

Pirelli ready to supply Q3-only tyres, but says teams are reluctant to change format

"We could do it immediately," Hembery told Autosprint. "We could come up with a specific compound, or maintain the current ones.

"But the teams say that the format is fine as is, that the public enjoys tyre strategies.

"But if a fan on the grandstands doesn't see much running in Q3, then that fan casts the blame on Pirelli thinking that we don't want to spend any more money in order to supply more tyres."
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Qualifying tyres are the answer!

This whole rule of top 10 starting on old rubber is outdated and not even fun for the spectators (just like the whole oh how much fuel did he qualify on to star the race with stupid rule). Just a simple go for pole with the best youve got!
 
El_Bando said:
Qualifying tyres are the answer!

This whole rule of top 10 starting on old rubber is outdated and not even fun for the spectators (just like the whole oh how much fuel did he qualify on to star the race with stupid rule). Just a simple go for pole with the best youve got!
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Agreed, change the rules that states at least 1 flying lap needs to be made in Q3 and supply the teams with a super sticky qualli tyre!
Would mean the teams can save the tyres for the race.
 
The easy cop out rule would be the implementation of the 107% rule in all 3 sessions
Don't make this in q3 then you are sent to the back of q2 i.e. 16th (q2 -> q3 also)
 
107% rule shouldn't come into play, you use the race tyres in Q1 and Q2, so you can go about saving tyres for the race in those sessions.
But once in Q3, tyre saving is no longer necessary because you'd be given quali tyres, so wind up the engine, get someone other than Lewis Hamiltons fuel guy to fill the tank with the min. amount of fuel and let rip!
 
To be honest, I am starting to miss the quali battles. Time for quali q3 tyres I feel, then give top teams the chance to use any tyre they want on race day as drivers behind having that advantage of choice just feels a bit hollow when they do well.
 
It does seem we have too much spice in F1 now. Michel Roux would be bollocking Bernie Ecclestone now if he was on Master chef for all the spice he has put in, let alone the intention of putting those crazy overpowering spices like gold medals and short cuts.

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It's funny how some people seems to be saying that we should go to a simple "just go for pole" or best time from the practice sessions idea again, which was pretty much like the old qualifying that was a total snooze-fest as everyone waiting until the last 5 minutes to do anything after the also rans had gone out and put some rubber down and cleaned the track.

It's a shame that they can't just get be given an extra set of whatever tyre they want to qualify with and start the race on in the final session but be forced to put a time in, or else be put back 10 places or so.

The only problem with that, that I can see at the moment, is that you might argue that we might not see so many of the big names/teams losing out at the end of Q2 as they try to save a set of tyres for Q3 and end up being 11th, 12th or 13th as others gamble and use up a set of softer tyres. If everyone knew that they'd get another bonus set in Q3 then they'd be more likely to run again at the end of Q2 and get through safely.

Like most things, there's probably no perfect answer.
 
Instead of a qualifying tyre, could we not just give the teams 2 primes and 2 options for qualifying that they do not use in the race, saving race tyres, doing away with the start of race rule, and no penalty to any team
 
The suggestion that any car sitting out Q3 should begin on the tyres they set their quickest Q2 time would not fix the problem –unless it meant that they would also forfeit the tyres available to them for Q3– since the reason cars are sitting Q3 out is to save tyres! For this reason, I cannot believe this was Hembery's suggestion. He is an intelligent man and would know this would solve very little.

I believe there should be an obligation for all those who qualify for any session to take part in it regardless of preference or conditions such as track temperature or weather (which might mean that Q3 times are slower than Q2 in any case).

  • A simple rule could be made to penalise the driver of any car not taking part in any session it is eligible for (including Q1), with a five place grid penalty. The obligation would be very clear for every driver and every team for every session.
  • Additionally, it might be worth considering the forfeiting of any set(s) of tyres deliberately 'saved' in this manner.
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P.S. I was surprised to read earlier that someone questioned whether anyone would care much about some cars not going out; to which there is a very simple answer: YES, THEY WOULD! If any part of F1 is marketed as 'entertainment', those paying for the entertainment have a right to expect to be entertained. And it would be quite ridiculous to suggest that some cars or drivers are more or less entertaining. They all need to go out in order to play their part. That is surely what this whole discussion is about.
 
McLarenBluebird said:
Instead of a qualifying tyre, could we not just give the teams 2 primes and 2 options for qualifying that they do not use in the race, saving race tyres, doing away with the start of race rule, and no penalty to any team
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You'd probably have to cut down on the number of tyres allocated for the race too, as I think one of the reasons for the limits in the first place is to save costs. Also, you might need more than 2 of each set for the qualifying sessions too as you may end up with everyone running the softer compounds in the first 2 sessions and then you'd get a final qualifying session being run on the harder tyre, or (ab)used softs, which might at least be a level playing field, but you'd probably end up with a Q3 pole lap time being slower than the guy who is starting 11th, which would be a bit odd.
 
I just feel its justified that you don't want to run in Q3 if you know you wont get close to the front and don't need to be further punished by the guys that were slower than you in Q2 getting an advantage on you for Sunday.

I never understood the FIA's thought process that being 11th-12th was better than being 8th-10th, it's an advantage they never deserved so why support people who are slower?
 
This is a great idea, stops drivers hunching up in the corner of their garage to save the feather like tyres they had before.
 
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. The idea of cars sitting out Q3 is ludicrous and it's great to see that someone is at least trying to do something about it. For a minute in Spain I thought only about 4/5 cars would set a competitive time. It's ridiculous that anyone can gain an advantage by not setting a lap time over those who do.

I think the idea to penalise anyone who doesn't take part in a session is a good one, and perhaps combined with tyres allotted for qualifying only, could be the solution.
 
SilverArrow said:
I just feel its justified that you don't want to run in Q3 if you know you wont get close to the front and don't need to be further punished by the guys that were slower than you in Q2 getting an advantage on you for Sunday.

I never understood the FIA's thought process that being 11th-12th was better than being 8th-10th, it's an advantage they never deserved so why support people who are slower?
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I think that as F1 is a form of entertainment that a lot of people pay a lot of money for, teams really should be competing in all 3 sessions, with the final session being a crescendo that the other sessions have lead up to, which is kinda how it used to be when the new style qualifying was bought in, with pole changing hands rapidly. Now we get some cars not bothering to start in Q3 and even if they do, some pull in before even finishing their final runs as they think that they either wont be anywhere or don't need to bother. Hardly a great spectacle. Sure, die-hard F1 fans might well understand why teams want to behave like this, but the majority who just enjoy the spectacle are probably are not impressed, and therefore sponsors will not be impressed and people will carry on thinking that F1 is a dull sport, which many people still do even after all the great seasons that we've had recently. It's not hard to find people who still think that F1 is a procession behind Schumacher in a Ferrari. I know, they are just ignorant fools, but that's still the reputation that F1 has, and needs to keep fighting against.

As for supporting people who are slower, I get where you're coming from, and I guess that part of the thinking behind the starting on used tyres for the front runners thing was another effort to make the racing closer between the top teams and the midfield pack. Helping to guard against the front runners scampering away, giving a bit of an advantage to the chasers, again, making the sport more interesting for the casual fan.
 
Nothing will stop it, all that will happen is the cars will put on softs and go around the track at 30mph so they don't hurt their tyres at all. The only fair way is to either scrap the starting tyre rule and give everyone who makes it into Q2 an extra soft tyre and another one for those who go into q3 which can only be used in qualifying, but that totally negates the whole point of the exercise in economy which the rule was bought in for.
 
Make Q1 - hard tyre only
then Q2 - soft tyre only

Q1 - what ever they have left (obviously you will try and have a fresh allocation spare from the previous sessions)

Race day - all cars will start on fresh tyres
 
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