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That's a good post Circa. it's hard getting the balance right between justifiable indignation and tolerance but you make some good points there.
 
Tommytiger said:
They're basically VW's but they aren't. I still don't rate them as cars. And this is coming from a man who drives a Toyota.
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If you don't rate a skoda you don't rate a vw, Audi or Seat, as they are all made with the same parts so essentially the same cars with different cosmetic styling.

Toyota are also a very, very good car manufacturer, just as all the Jap manufacturers are.
 
Circa said:
Personally most of the football world in Belgium seems to have decided to give him a second chance... he's been quite popular, Anderlecht want him and he's starting to be selected for the Belgium national team. Would you say they have no morals? or greater tolerance.
I'd worry that he's a little bit of a volatile character who will need to be dealt with very specifically but his talent is undeniable apparently (according to the likes of Kompany and Belgium national coach)

At the end of the day, many more famous players have done some pretty awful things and are currently playing in the PL.
I'd definitely have a problem with him if it was quite recent/did it while he was a city player.

However, I just feel that considering he was 16 and he hasn't exactly gotten away with it , spent a few years in jail, was part of a reeducation program where prisoners play football and train, I'd be inclined to give him a second chance.

It's a little bit awkward to think that if he had stabbed another 16 year old people probably wouldn't have as much an issue.

I know his crime is particularly awful but I just feel that at that age many have done some very very stupid things. It's a time where you're troubled and influenceable. Doubt he received much of an education... also he lived in an area of Brussels (used to live in Brussels) that I know pretty well which is 95% african and is just a big ghetto.
We can't know his level of involvement in the matter, all we know is that he hasn't gotten away with it but I personally feel inclined to forgive someone that age. You're not grown up, you make stupid choices or sometimes other people make them for you.
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Most sensible post on the subject yet.
 
Circa said:
Personally most of the football world in Belgium seems to have decided to give him a second chance... he's been quite popular, Anderlecht want him and he's starting to be selected for the Belgium national team. Would you say they have no morals? or greater tolerance.
I'd worry that he's a little bit of a volatile character who will need to be dealt with very specifically but his talent is undeniable apparently (according to the likes of Kompany and Belgium national coach)

At the end of the day, many more famous players have done some pretty awful things and are currently playing in the PL.
I'd definitely have a problem with him if it was quite recent/did it while he was a city player.

However, I just feel that considering he was 16 and he hasn't exactly gotten away with it , spent a few years in jail, was part of a reeducation program where prisoners play football and train, I'd be inclined to give him a second chance.

It's a little bit awkward to think that if he had stabbed another 16 year old people probably wouldn't have as much an issue.

I know his crime is particularly awful but I just feel that at that age many have done some very very stupid things. It's a time where you're troubled and influenceable. Doubt he received much of an education... also he lived in an area of Brussels (used to live in Brussels) that I know pretty well which is 95% african and is just a big ghetto.
We can't know his level of involvement in the matter, all we know is that he hasn't gotten away with it but I personally feel inclined to forgive someone that age. You're not grown up, you make stupid choices or sometimes other people make them for you.
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Edit: Meant to say, that is a good post; stupid/appalling, it's both.

I am intolerant of many things, not least a lack of perspective, along with fair compassionate tolerance; hmm, be tolerant, I know what I mean . .

. . I find it strange that someone might desert the support of his club over this tried, punished and rehabilitated young man, after all I can recall some holding in esteem an individual who lived a life of thuggery, violence and drugs, who thought nothing of giving drugs (microdot) to 13yr old bairns. People can mellow with time, they can react to better influences, but they need an opportunity. I am not having a go at anyone, but I do fail to understand how a young, immature boy can be held up for eternal examination by his less than perfect peers. But I suppose the most puzzling argument posted was that a plus would be that his record would make his fee and wages lower; bizarre!
 
I suspect he might not be quite as rehabilitated as some might think - he spent a night in jail as recently as April, after refusing to show his papers to police and then insulting them.

He scored two goals the next day in a 2-1 win, though!
 
Tuckin said:
I suspect he might not be quite as rehabilitated as some might think - he spent a night in jail as recently as April, after refusing to show his papers to police and then insulting them.

He scored two goals the next day in a 2-1 win, though!
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Good in him. That makes me like him even more.
 
originallambrettaman said:
Gang rape isn't stupid, it's appalling.
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You're missing the point...

Most 16 year olds have done something "wrong".

It could be stealing, it could be stabbing, it could be raping.

All of these have different degrees of severity but the point is they're all possibilities and without generalising too much you could argue that many factors come into play. You may have only nicked a bike in your youth but you also weren't in a African mafia gang in a Brussels ghetto at such a young age, you may have received a different set of morals and education from your parents.

You can't treat these things black and white, that's ****ing daft frankly. It's easy for you to be all judgemental and condemn this but you don't even know what went on in his life and his head back then, you don't know how he feels about it now.
Personally, I don't agree with those who say "rape is rape". A 30 year old raping a 14 year old is not the same thing as a 16 year old doing so. A rape under the influence of cocaine is not the same as a sober one. A woman raping a man is not the same as the other way round.


PS: when I say "you" It is a generic you.
 
Circa said:
You're missing the point...

Most 16 year olds have done something "wrong".

It could be stealing, it could be stabbing, it could be raping.

All of these have different degrees of severity but the point is they're all possibilities and without generalising too much you could argue that many factors come into play. You may have only nicked a bike in your youth but you also weren't in a African mafia gang in a Brussels ghetto at such a young age, you may have received a different set of morals and education from your parents.

You can't treat these things black and white, that's ****ing daft frankly. It's easy for you to be all judgemental and condemn this but you don't even know what went on in his life and his head back then, you don't know how he feels about it now.
Personally, I don't agree with those who say "rape is rape". A 30 year old raping a 14 year old is not the same thing as a 16 year old doing so. A rape under the influence of cocaine is not the same as a sober one. A woman raping a man is not the same as the other way round.


PS: when I say "you" It is a generic you.
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Gang rape is gang rape, there's no grey area and most 16 year old's don't do it, nor have most stabbed anyone.

If people are willing to overlook his past, just because he scores goals, then that's entirely up to them.

If it was my daughter he'd gang raped, the **** would be dead by now and we wouldn't be having this debate.
 
Like Fez said, irrelevant of what type of crime was committed, I think it's very harsh to basically label someone for the rest of their lives when they were only teenagers when it happened. If people don't believe in rehabilitation or that a teenager can change once an adult then we might as well chop the head off of anyone that has committed a crime.

Of course, if it was my daughter I'd struggle to say this but then again my judgement and opinion would be biased and therefore flawed.

He has received punishment which is the first step in my opinion so I think it would be harsh to condemn him for eternity.


However, he does seem to be a little bit of a handful (both on and off the pitch) like Balotelli.


I reckon for £5million he'll be a steal and worth double or more if he has a good season with us and carries on his progress with national team. So if he's too much trouble, let's make some profit and offload him.
 
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