Lia Thomas

[polyphemus]

Some may remember the problems Marina Navratilova encountered when she suggested that Trans players should not be allowed to complete as a woman just because they claimed to identify as a woman.
They should, she said, only be allowed after the medical procedures had been compled.
No testicles, reduced male hormones.

Many came down on her like a ton of bricks, particularly in the trans community, (I didn't know there was such a thing till then).
Her point though was that such competition was unfair.
I believe that this stance cost her as PC broadcasters started to distance themselve and shy away from her services at big events.

Now it seems that Swimming has taken all of this one, VERY LARGE step further.

The idea of new catagories seems logical enough though.
Events restricted to those have transitioned, or claim to be in the process.

I doubt though that Public interest would make such events as remunerative to the competitors.

 

[Smug in Boots]

I agree with all of that, it mirrors my own experiences of life. But I have some discomfort about the the bit I have highlighted.

If you are asking the question WHY, I supose their answer might be because they can.

Medical Science is, it seems to me, something of a two edged sword.
It has allowed billions to live who might previously have died.
But those same advances have made it possible to mess around with our very beings.
And this makes me, you and many others, very uncomfortable.

I suspect that our Great Grandchildren will accept all of this without any problem.

'I suspect that our Great Grandchildren will accept all of this without any problem.'

Sadly the instances of child suicide, depression, bullying and all of the issues connected to mental health are increasing.

It's horrible mate and really worries me. I'd hate to be a child growing up now. They're told that any kind of behaviour is acceptable providing it's 'exercising your personal preferences'.

For example, society is constantly telling children that 'big is beautiful' and that they should celebrate their size no matter what. So child obesity is rocketing and they're told to answer any criticism by 'refusing to be oppressed or judged by people'.

I strongly disagree, they damn well should be judged and told straight that having free will and rights doesn't mean doing anything you choose.

There's a huge recent prevalence of people saying ' I know my rights' without knowing their responsibilities.

Being part of society means you should automatically have responsibilities, no man is an island as they say

Anyway, I'm rambling now

 

[polyphemus]

'I suspect that our Great Grandchildren will accept all of this without any problem.'

Sadly the instances of child suicide, depression, bullying and all of the issues connected to mental health are increasing.

It's horrible mate and really worries me. I'd hate to be a child growing up now. They're told that any kind of behaviour is acceptable providing it's 'exercising your personal preferences'.

For example, society is constantly telling children that 'big is beautiful' and that they should celebrate their size no matter what. So child obesity is rocketing and they're told to answer any criticism by 'refusing to be oppressed or judged by people'.

I strongly disagree, they damn well should be judged and told straight that having free will and rights doesn't mean doing anything you choose.

There's a huge recent prevalence of people saying ' I know my rights' without knowing their responsibilities.

Being part of society means you should automatically have responsibilities, no man is an island as they say

Anyway, I'm rambling now

I do wish that you would stop reading my mind!!!!!

One of my regular, (too regular you may say), complaints is 'The Human Rights Act'.
Lawyers and Judges have translated this into an excuse for almost any unsocial activity you can think of..
BUT no Politician has the guts to come out with a Human Responsibilities Act to balance things up.

(And PLEASE excuse the rant).

 

[Smug in Boots]

I do wish that you would stop reading my mind!!!!!

One of my regular, (too regular you may say), complaints is 'The Human Rights Act'.
Lawyers and Judges have translated this into an excuse for almost any unsocial activity you can think of..
BUT no Politician has the guts to come out with a Human Responsibilities Act to balance things up.

(And PLEASE excuse the rant).

There's a spoken prelude on a song by the Unthanks that I particularly like. The Unthanks are a Northumbrian group, with Rachel and Becky Unthank, who I'm happy to say are friends of me and Mrs Smug. I find this song quite powerful but humble at the same time.

https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/c...ead-harrogate-taking-bbc-radio-2-album-prize/

On the song The Happiness or Otherwise of Society, The Unthanks had permission from Tyneside miner Jack Elliot’s daughter, Doreen, to use her father’s voice over a simple plaintiff piano, before the brass soars and sisters, Rachel and Becky’s vocals begin. The words included are: "Morals are social in their origin, I’ve always found. I used to teach my children this: if you hurt society, you hurt yourself, for one simple reason you’re a member of society…"

 

[gelders pie]

'I suspect that our Great Grandchildren will accept all of this without any problem.'

Sadly the instances of child suicide, depression, bullying and all of the issues connected to mental health are increasing.

It's horrible mate and really worries me. I'd hate to be a child growing up now. They're told that any kind of behaviour is acceptable providing it's 'exercising your personal preferences'.

For example, society is constantly telling children that 'big is beautiful' and that they should celebrate their size no matter what. So child obesity is rocketing and they're told to answer any criticism by 'refusing to be oppressed or judged by people'.

I strongly disagree, they damn well should be judged and told straight that having free will and rights doesn't mean doing anything you choose.

There's a huge recent prevalence of people saying ' I know my rights' without knowing their responsibilities.

Being part of society means you should automatically have responsibilities, no man is an island as they say

Anyway, I'm rambling now

Agree mate. The auto “retort” of I know my rights really winds me up , I think in most cases of people who rely on it to excuse themselves, the speed at which they come out with it is opposingly proportional to their miniscule knowledge of law or anything

 

[samwise_new]

i wonder how long these reality sh1te shows would last if they put 'normal' people in, by normal i mean people who have not spent years in the gym and/or spent a small fortune on various parts of thier bodies...you know the ones, skinny billy the stick insect or the 'fat slags' types.

yet those that take part and watch are the very ones who will cry that it is fine and you should love yourself for what you are (texting to social media from the gym) and if anyone does not agree then they are wrong and you 'have your rights'...i would bet they would be among the first to stop watching.

i dont want to rant but wtf happened to 'live and let live' as well as 'know your place', why does it feel that we are constantly being pushed into 'accepting' something we probably never worried about, it also feels as if our kids are being coerced into a certain way of thinking...while we all want to see acceptance i feel it should be a natural acceptance as when people feel forced that is when they might feel the need to fight back and that can never be a good situation.

 

[Smug in Boots]

i wonder how long these reality sh1te shows would last if they put 'normal' people in, by normal i mean people who have not spent years in the gym and/or spent a small fortune on various parts of thier bodies...you know the ones, skinny billy the stick insect or the 'fat slags' types.

yet those that take part and watch are the very ones who will cry that it is fine and you should love yourself for what you are (texting to social media from the gym) and if anyone does not agree then they are wrong and you 'have your rights'...i would bet they would be among the first to stop watching.

i dont want to rant but wtf happened to 'live and let live' as well as 'know your place', why does it feel that we are constantly being pushed into 'accepting' something we probably never worried about, it also feels as if our kids are being coerced into a certain way of thinking...while we all want to see acceptance i feel it should be a natural acceptance as when people feel forced that is when they might feel the need to fight back and that can never be a good situation.

Almost every 'show' these days is nothing more than a popularity contest.

It doesn't matter what the so called subject is supposed to be whether it's baking scones or eating worms in the jungle.

Everyone is continually judged, savagely sometimes by the 'nasty celebrity' on the panel. And on shows like the X-Factor the stylists move in to change people's style/hair/make up, probably even their teeth. The level of talent is irrelevant, it's all about image and saleability.

Yet we're supposed to be teaching our children to accept everyone for what they are and not judge people, especially because of how they look.

The most bizarre show was a recent sack of shyte where people who couldn't sing, and didn't want to sing, were taught how to sing

 

[Ban the Ketchup]

My daughter swims competitively and trains really hard, to have to compete on a non level playing field would anger me, fair enough if you are beaten fair and square but physically there is no arguing that the trans athlete has an unfair advantage over the competition

 

[samwise_new]

Almost every 'show' these days is nothing more than a popularity contest.

It doesn't matter what the so called subject is supposed to be whether it's baking scones or eating worms in the jungle.

Everyone is continually judged, savagely sometimes by the 'nasty celebrity' on the panel. And on shows like the X-Factor the stylists move in to change people's style/hair/make up, probably even their teeth. The level of talent is irrelevant, it's all about image and saleability.

Yet we're supposed to be teaching our children to accept everyone for what they are and not judge people, especially because of how they look.

The most bizarre show was a recent sack of shyte where people who couldn't sing, and didn't want to sing, were taught how to sing

that, is painfully true and accurate, image first, ability last.

one of the best voices i remember belonged to alison moyet (sp?) but she was not a skinny minny so seemed to get ignored and i often wonder if she had been a couple of stones less in weight would the media have had more to do with her...got to also remember this was around the time of kylie 'the rogue' who, if she got any thinner would snap in the first decent breeze.

 

[Smug in Boots]

that, is painfully true and accurate, image first, ability last.

one of the best voices i remember belonged to alison moyet (sp?) but she was not a skinny minny so seemed to get ignored and i often wonder if she had been a couple of stones less in weight would the media have had more to do with her...got to also remember this was around the time of kylie 'the rogue' who, if she got any thinner would snap in the first decent breeze.

Time for one of Smug's 'friend of the stars' stories that nobody reads

Yazoo came to Rock City on the back of 'Upstairs at Erics', she had a fabulous voice but was a nervous performer. Before she went on I was backstage and there were a few tears. During the performance she totally lost her way and dried up ...

... so the crowd just took up the singing and kept going until she found her way again.

It was a lovely moment and showed the affection people had for her

 

[E.T. Fairfax]

Olympic diving champion Tom Daley says he is "furious" at his sport's world governing body for voting to stop transgender athletes from competing in women's elite events.

Fina will not allow trans athletes to compete in women's competitions if they have gone through any part of the process of male puberty.

The policy covers all sports governed by Fina, including swimming and diving.

Daley, speaking at the British LGBT Awards, said the ruling was "not on".

"I was furious," he told iNews. "Anyone that's told that they can't compete or can't do something they love just because of who they are, it's not on.

"It's something I feel really strongly about. Giving trans people the chance to share their side."

Fina will aim to establish an 'open' category at competitions for athletes whose gender identity is different than that of their birth sex.

The policy means that transgender American college swimmer Lia Thomas, who has expressed a desire to compete for a place at the Olympics, would be blocked from participating in the female category at the Games.

Fina president Husain Al-Musallam said the organisation was trying to "protect the rights of our athletes to compete" but also "protect competitive fairness".

He said: "Fina will always welcome every athlete. The creation of an open category will mean that everybody has the opportunity to compete at an elite level.

"This has not been done before, so Fina will need to lead the way. I want all athletes to feel included in being able to develop ideas during this process."

Former Great Britain swimmer Sharron Davies, who has argued against transgender participation in women's elite swimming, told BBC Sport she was "really proud of Fina".

However, 'Athlete Ally' - an LGBT advocacy group which organised a letter of support for Thomas in February, called the new policy "discriminatory, harmful, unscientific and not in line with the 2021 IOC principles".

"The eligibility criteria for the women's category as it is laid out in the policy polices the bodies of all women, and will not be enforceable without seriously violating the privacy and human rights of any athlete looking to compete in the women's category," said Anne Lieberman, the group's director of policy and programmes.

Other world governing bodies, including World Athletics and Fifa, are now reviewing their inclusion policies.

In rugby league, transgender players have been banned from women's internationals while International Rugby League (IRL) does further research on its policy.

.

 

[Smug in Boots]

Olympic diving champion Tom Daley says he is "furious" at his sport's world governing body for voting to stop transgender athletes from competing in women's elite events.

Fina will not allow trans athletes to compete in women's competitions if they have gone through any part of the process of male puberty.

The policy covers all sports governed by Fina, including swimming and diving.

Daley, speaking at the British LGBT Awards, said the ruling was "not on".

"I was furious," he told iNews. "Anyone that's told that they can't compete or can't do something they love just because of who they are, it's not on.

"It's something I feel really strongly about. Giving trans people the chance to share their side."

Fina will aim to establish an 'open' category at competitions for athletes whose gender identity is different than that of their birth sex.

The policy means that transgender American college swimmer Lia Thomas, who has expressed a desire to compete for a place at the Olympics, would be blocked from participating in the female category at the Games.

Fina president Husain Al-Musallam said the organisation was trying to "protect the rights of our athletes to compete" but also "protect competitive fairness".

He said: "Fina will always welcome every athlete. The creation of an open category will mean that everybody has the opportunity to compete at an elite level.

"This has not been done before, so Fina will need to lead the way. I want all athletes to feel included in being able to develop ideas during this process."

Former Great Britain swimmer Sharron Davies, who has argued against transgender participation in women's elite swimming, told BBC Sport she was "really proud of Fina".

However, 'Athlete Ally' - an LGBT advocacy group which organised a letter of support for Thomas in February, called the new policy "discriminatory, harmful, unscientific and not in line with the 2021 IOC principles".

"The eligibility criteria for the women's category as it is laid out in the policy polices the bodies of all women, and will not be enforceable without seriously violating the privacy and human rights of any athlete looking to compete in the women's category," said Anne Lieberman, the group's director of policy and programmes.

Other world governing bodies, including World Athletics and Fifa, are now reviewing their inclusion policies.

In rugby league, transgender players have been banned from women's internationals while International Rugby League (IRL) does further research on its policy.

.

"I was furious," he told iNews. "Anyone that's told that they can't compete or can't do something they love just because of who they are, it's not on.

So on that basis a self confessed 15 year old *****phile, who was psychologically born that way, should be allowed to compete with others the same age and younger.

Yes Tom, anyone should be allowed to do anything they want no matter how different they are

 

[Smug in Boots]

...

 

[TeamOfTalents]

Yep, just because i'm a bloke they won't let me compete against women. So unfair....fuming here

 

[E.T. Fairfax]

"I was furious," he told iNews. "Anyone that's told that they can't compete or can't do something they love just because of who they are, it's not on.

So on that basis a self confessed 15 year old *****phile, who was psychologically born that way, should be allowed to compete with others the same age and younger.

Yes Tom, anyone should be allowed to do anything they want no matter how different they are

Did anybody then ask him 'So Tom, what do you say to the women who, like you, have worked their whole lives to reach their peak but will miss out on representing their country due to the inclusion of an athlete who has many undoubted physical advantages to them?'

What would his answer be?

 

[Ban the Ketchup]

The worlds gone mad. Why isn’t a seperate trans event not acceptable? I identify as the meat in a Margot Robbie/Salma Hayek love sandwich, but will this happen?? It’s my right!!!!

 

[samwise_new]

"I was furious," he told iNews. "Anyone that's told that they can't compete or can't do something they love just because of who they are, it's not on.

So on that basis a self confessed 15 year old *****phile, who was psychologically born that way, should be allowed to compete with others the same age and younger.

Yes Tom, anyone should be allowed to do anything they want no matter how different they are

so....let's say i am a 40 year old bloke who identifies as and wants to be treated as a female teenage swimmer and wish to compete with girls as young as 13 in competition then according to Tom i should be allowed to do it, i presume as i am in the same competitions then i would be required to use the same facilities, i mean, there is no way i could go in the same room as those nasty males to change.

sorry mate, but there really has to be a line drawn somewhere in all this, no one should want to see a person trapped and living a lie but while the rest of us are asked to accept them as they are, they also need to accept they should not use it to gain an advantage...we simply cannot continue with everyone getting exactly what they want at whatever cost or however many changes have to be made to accomodate it.

i am male, there have been many obstacles in my way in life due to various things and i have had to either overcome them or simply put up with them and unfortunately that is life, not everything will line up perfectly for you and there will be set backs, i'm afraid that is how it is, how it has been and how it always will be no matter how often you whine that it is not fair and not what you want.

 

[Ronsafc]

My daughter told me this morning that a man who had a sex change is now taking the NHS to court because he is sad and wants to change back. It is their fault they did not do more to stop him in the first place.

 

[C Montgomery Burns]

"I was furious," he told iNews. "Anyone that's told that they can't compete or can't do something they love just because of who they are, it's not on.

So on that basis a self confessed 15 year old *****phile, who was psychologically born that way, should be allowed to compete with others the same age and younger.

Yes Tom, anyone should be allowed to do anything they want no matter how different they are

You can bet though, that if it was the other way round and he was a she who lost out on a medal or even a place in the GB diving squad to a trans woman that he'd be shouting out how unfair it is and wanting rules changed.

The fact is Lia Thomas was no where in the US rankings as a male swimmer, an also ran, but once she became a trans woman she was able to smash records and be number one ranked female swimmer. What is to stop unscrupulous countries or individuals from claiming to be transgender just to win medals and tje associated money and prestige that goes with it, simply because its easier? And that's before you start on about the affect on non trans women, women's rights etc...

 

[Smug in Boots]

You can bet though, that if it was the other way round and he was a she who lost out on a medal or even a place in the GB diving squad to a trans woman that he'd be shouting out how unfair it is and wanting rules changed.

The fact is Lia Thomas was no where in the US rankings as a male swimmer, an also ran, but once she became a trans woman she was able to smash records and be number one ranked female swimmer. What is to stop unscrupulous countries or individuals from claiming to be transgender just to win medals and tje associated money and prestige that goes with it, simply because its easier? And that's before you start on about the affect on non trans women, women's rights etc...

It's obvious that, if this was allowed, you'd eventually end up with no natural women swimmers or many other kinds of athlete. Every competitor would be transgender and what would be the point of that.

As you say, where does that leave women's rights or those of men who identify as women but don't want their equipment hacked off.