Jake Livermore

[safcneville]

It all depends on wether he was on it before the bairn died.

If it was a regular thing, but happened to happen again after his loss, then it's sick of him to use the kid as an excuse.

If it's something he's purely done as a coping factor, then I believe he should be able to keep on playing.

Unfortunately it's hard to know, that's why I think he's been given the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Aussie blackcat85]

Livermore to avoid drugs ban. Catch up Aussie this could go on for a while.

I don't see it as an excuse terry. You do, obviously we disagree Stop trying to make out I'm some silly twat. I'll save the forum some wasted reading time

 

[Tel (they/them)]

People on here are being sympathetic to the decision because they can, this decision is being handled on it's individual merits, which is fine but it sets a ****ing awful precedent for future players getting away with taking drugs in this sport because they can just play the 'depressed' card, any good lawyer would rip the FA a new arsehole if they let Livermore off and not some other mug who's trying to pull a fast one.

If you lot went down at Hull's expense last season this thread would look completely different.

 

[Tel (they/them)]

I don't see it as an excuse terry. You do, obviously we disagree Stop trying to make out I'm some silly twat. I'll save the forum some wasted reading time

Stop crying you sad prat I was having a laugh, I wasn't trying to degrade you at all.

 

[Deleted #]

I'm with Billy 100% on this.

We don't know how deeply he was affected as we all respond in different ways, if he's gone into a spiral and been dealing with depression then that would come under mental health and therefore there would be a certain level of responsibility and of lenience that would need to be allowed.

The lad has clearly suffered, and as Hull were relegated it's clear no sporting advantage was gained, I see no real harm in the handling of the situation, other than, as Terry says, it may open the floodgates for similar stories to cover.

I've no doubt Livermore's reasons are genuine, for the record, but moving forward a precedent has been set.

That's utter BS mate. A few posters on here have mental health issues and it's something that get's dealt with, it's not an excuse or a way out when you land bang in trouble.

If he has never used it before his child died, I would be very surprised.

I agree with your comment about opening the floodgates and that's the bit I'm mainly debating. Now everybody who gets caught can drag up a tragedy from the past and use that. Zero tolerance on drugs is exactly that, zero tolerance.

 

[Nads]

That's utter BS mate. A few posters on here have mental health issues and it's something that get's dealt with, it's not an excuse or a way out when you land bang in trouble.

If he has never used it before his child died, I would be very surprised.

I agree with your comment about opening the floodgates and that's the bit I'm mainly debating. Now everybody who gets caught can drag up a tragedy from the past and use that. Zero tolerance on drugs is exactly that, zero tolerance.

It's far from BS mate.

I handle recruitment and HR as part of my role and if somebody is suffering from anything termed as mental health or depression there are various laws in place to protect the individual.

Many of the posters on this board will be more than aware of this due to personal circumstances, as am I, and just because he is a footballer doesn't exclude him from employment laws and such.

Footballers are still workers, and still are afforded the same rights as you and me, quite rightly. Tell me how any of what I said therefore is 'BS'.

 

[Aussie blackcat85]

Stop crying you sad prat I was having a laugh, I wasn't trying to degrade you at all.

Not sad at all mate, just have experience on the matter and I reckon your being a little harsh. Anyway all about opinions isn't it? I disagree with you, no biggie.

 

[Tel (they/them)]

It's far from BS mate.

I handle recruitment and HR as part of my role and if somebody is suffering from anything termed as mental health or depression there are various laws in place to protect the individual.

Many of the posters on this board will be more than aware of this due to personal circumstances, as am I, and just because he is a footballer doesn't exclude him from employment laws and such.

Footballers are still workers, and still are afforded the same rights as you and me, quite rightly. Tell me how any of what I said therefore is 'BS'.

If that's the case then mate, I'll take your word for it, but why don't the FA just say "We can't ban him, even if we wanted to"?

 

[Tel (they/them)]

Not sad at all mate, just have experience on the matter and I reckon your being a little harsh. Anyway all about opinions isn't it? I disagree with you, no biggie.

Fair enough, what's your experience on drugs in sport out of interest?

 

[Deleted #]

Here's a true story. 3 days after turning the rifle on myself, I was informed it was to be sent away for testing because it had the pressure pumped up in it. The legal limit is 12ft.lb. I knew it was border line and it came back as firing 11.83, I basically had a rifle that had the power of a sawn off shotgun and but for tiny fractions, I could have been looking at 5 years for possession of an illegal firearm.

It didn't even enter my thoughts to use depressions as an excuse, I know the law of the land and would have accepted my punishment.

 

[Nads]

If that's the case then mate, I'll take your word for it, but why don't the FA just say "We can't ban him, even if we wanted to"?

Confidentiality perhaps? Has there been any disclosure from Livermore regarding this? Again, we only get to know what he permits to be made public if that is the scenario, of course I have speculated that this is what's happened but it seems not only plausible, but extremely likely to me.

I do, on a seperate level, love the hypocrisy of people over the use of cocaine. I barely know anyone of my age group that doesn't, or hasn't taken it, yet it's made out to be the devils work when it happens in the public eye.

Laughable really.

 

[Deleted #]

It's far from BS mate.

I handle recruitment and HR as part of my role and if somebody is suffering from anything termed as mental health or depression there are various laws in place to protect the individual.

Many of the posters on this board will be more than aware of this due to personal circumstances, as am I, and just because he is a footballer doesn't exclude him from employment laws and such.

Footballers are still workers, and still are afforded the same rights as you and me, quite rightly. Tell me how any of what I said therefore is 'BS'.

Fair enough mate. Genuine question here, can you tell somebody like Livermore he has a mental health issue or does he have to be diagnosed before proceeding down the Mental Health route?

My point still stands, everybody who has had a tragedy will put it under depression and therefore mental health issues.

 

[Tel (they/them)]

Confidentiality perhaps? Has there been any disclosure from Livermore regarding this? Again, we only get to know what he permits to be made public if that is the scenario, of course I have speculated that this is what's happened but it seems not only plausible, but extremely likely to me.

I do, on a seperate level, love the hypocrisy of people over the use of cocaine. I barely know anyone of my age group that doesn't, or hasn't taken it, yet it's made out to be the devils work when it happens in the public eye.

Laughable really.

Not really mate, how many of your mates are role models to kids? How many of them are professional sportsmen?

I was in the military and never touched a thing, I had people's lives indirectly in my hands.

What if it was a surgeon who let somebody die on his table because he was goosed off beak?

It's completely relative to what he does for a living.

All this performance 'enhancing' stuff is completely irrelevant for me, it's the other way I'd look at, long before assessing how it could improve his performance on the pitch. He irresponsibly went out with drugs in his system, knowing his abilities were impaired and could have went in on another player and ended their career.

Does he say to the other player "Sorry mate, hope you understand, my baby died, never mind about your career eh pal".

Drugs are banned, for a reason. Ban him.

 

[Aussie blackcat85]

Fair enough, what's your experience on drugs in sport out of interest?

Losing my brother to cancer and using drugs? I've said it on here before, I put myself in rehabilitation, like many have said everyone deals with situations differently. The most important for me was having the strength and courage to change, get help and I certainly did. Doesn't matter if your in sport or Not, jake had a family tragedy and that's how he dealt with it. Cheer cheer to the FA

 

[Tel (they/them)]

Losing my brother to cancer and using drugs? I've said it on here before, I put myself in rehabilitation, like many have said everyone deals with situations differently. The most important for me was having the strength and courage to change, get help and I certainly did. Doesn't matter if your in sport or Not, jake had a family tragedy and that's how he dealt with it. Cheer cheer to the FA

Your debate is coming from a humanity level, mine purely sports and the laws of sports in particular.

My dad ruined my family and ****ed off when I was a young kid, he committed suicide shortly after, that's where my lack of empathy stems from. I don't connect int eh same ways you do, I guess that explains me and my stance on this subject. I feel sorry for the guy, but there's just a wall there for me, rules are rules.

Sorry to hear about your brother, I'm sure he was a diamond if he was anything like you.

 

[Nads]

Fair enough mate. Genuine question here, can you tell somebody like Livermore he has a mental health issue or does he have to be diagnosed before proceeding down the Mental Health route?

My point still stands, everybody who has had a tragedy will put it under depression and therefore mental health issues.

From a HR point of view where our business is concerned, it would certainly need to be medically certified and not just someone saying 'I'm depressed'.

If you are diagnosed as being depressed by a professional, then that falls under the mental health umbrella, it's an often abused route, but when genuine it is an often underestimated and all consuming thing. there are many, many factors to consider.

 

[Nads]

Not really mate, how many of your mates are role models to kids? How many of them are professional sportsmen?

I was in the military and never touched a thing, I had people's lives indirectly in my hands.

What if it was a surgeon who let somebody die on his table because he was goosed off beak?

It's completely relative to what he does for a living.

All this performance 'enhancing' stuff is completely irrelevant for me, it's the other way I'd look at, long before assessing how it could improve his performance on the pitch. He irresponsibly went out with drugs in his system, knowing his abilities were impaired and could have went in on another player and ended their career.

Does he say to the other player "Sorry mate, hope you understand, my baby died, never mind about your career eh pal".

Drugs are banned, for a reason. Ban him.

I can absolutely take all that on board mate, I can, but I don't feel this has been the FA going 'he's suffered enough', I feel there's a far deeper back story that we will never know about due to confidentiality etc.

I also agree with the role model element etc, but by the same token that doesn't mean someone who canes the gear every weekend can go all high and mighty as he's a footballer, the common thing when we heard about it in our group was 'young lad with loads of money and free time sniffs a bit gear, imagine...'.

All are different of course, as I have said already.

 

[Billy Death]

Maybe the lad is suffering from PTSD. It's not only soldiers who get that, could happen to anyone.
I went through a period where I was almost continually rat arsed.
Turning up at work pissed, that's when I could actually get my arse out of bed.
My then employers took me in & we sat & talked. They gave me the leeway to get over things - fair play to them.
As for any disciplinary action, it should be dealt with in private. Everyone is entitled to that.

 

[Aussie blackcat85]

Your debate is coming from a humanity level, mine purely sports and the laws of sports in particular.

My dad ruined my family and ****ed off when I was a young kid, he committed suicide shortly after, that's where my lack of empathy stems from. I don't connect int eh same ways you do, I guess that explains me and my stance on this subject. I feel sorry for the guy, but there's just a wall there for me, rules are rules.

Sorry to hear about your brother, I'm sure he was a diamond if he was anything like you.

Sorry to hear about your experience with your dad mate, your right i am coming from an humanity level, I believe sports is connected in that level too. I understand your black and white on this situation and especially from your past experiences, I respect that. Can I ask what your dad did?

 

[Nacho]

The IAAF wouldn't care about his misery.

Drugs in sport are banned, there's no exception to the rule.

You lot would be kicking off big time if this was Cisse and he'd just scored against you, it's because he's ****, nobody cares.

There can't be special dispensations for drug takers in sport, his kid died which is truly awful and I wouldn't wish that on any player, but it's NOT an excuse, sorry.

Sorry but I have to say that it's not fair to state that we'd all be kicking off it was Cisse who had just scored against us. I certainly wouldn't and you can see from this thread I'm not the only one. We're not that blinkered you know.