Israel - Palestine

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Bolton's Boots said:
You're saying that as though being there first was the deciding factor in who should be there now?
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I'm not, but it helps.

Of course there were people there before the Jews arrived, Canaanites, Moabites, Philistines, etc, but these people have long since become assimilated into other groups or disappeared from history completely, as distinct and identifiable groups. The Arabs, on the other, of which the current Palestinians claim to be a part, didn't really arrive in Israel until 635CE when the Moslem armies took Jerusalem. The Arab people come from the south of the Arabian Peninsula and spread as nomads and traders. Although the Arabs and Jews are both Semitic people, as are the Hashemites, Syrians, Lebanese, etc, the Arabs have a lot less in common with the other sub-groups.

In digging about I have found reference to a man called Omni from 925BCE, he is named as King of Israel on an Egyptian stelae. And while we are discussing this the ancient Egytians were not Arabic people either, I have read comment claiming the Arabs built the pyramids.
 
Dan Starkey said:
I must also say that whilst I understand Yorkie's unease about posting this I'm glad he did - this is one of the best discussions i've seen about it and have certainly learned new things from it. Obviously it is an emotive subject but it is one which is at the forefront of the global agenda. As long as it doesn't go down any blatantly anti Semetic, or indeed, any Islamaphobic route I don't really see a problem with it and would hope that those for whom this is closer to home wouldn't take offence either.

This board has really come into its own over the last couple of weeks - some brilliant debate on a range of subjects with opposing views but acceptance of differing opinions. Cracking stuff.
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I couldn't agree more. We have a history on here of being able to discuss any subject - give strong personal opinions but never let it slip into personal abuse nor into any form of "minorityism" (my new word). If people generally would only discuss more while respecting other people's opinions as different but not necessarily wrong the world might be a better place.

In the absence of football it is good to talk about other subjects - and I am not even counting down the 24 days till the new season :)
 
Whatever the rights and wrongs or the history the sad fact is that neither the Israelis nor the Palestinians seem to be able to take a step back and sort the mess out. One side keeps grabbing more land and building illegally; the other seems to carry on firing rockets of a sort over the border. I have absolutely no idea what would constitute a pragmatic and lasting peaceful solution to the problem but until there is a willingness by both parties to at least respect the rights of the other it ain't gonna happen.

I do wonder if we should build a metaphorical wall around the entire region and let them all get on with it... and when they can start acting in a civilised mannerthen they can rejoin the rest of society.
 
zen guerrilla said:
I'm not, but it helps.

Of course there were people there before the Jews arrived, Canaanites, Moabites, Philistines, etc, but these people have long since become assimilated into other groups or disappeared from history completely, as distinct and identifiable groups. The Arabs, on the other, of which the current Palestinians claim to be a part, didn't really arrive in Israel until 635CE when the Moslem armies took Jerusalem. The Arab people come from the south of the Arabian Peninsula and spread as nomads and traders. Although the Arabs and Jews are both Semitic people, as are the Hashemites, Syrians, Lebanese, etc, the Arabs have a lot less in common with the other sub-groups.

In digging about I have found reference to a man called Omni from 925BCE, he is named as King of Israel on an Egyptian stelae. And while we are discussing this the ancient Egytians were not Arabic people either, I have read comment claiming the Arabs built the pyramids.
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How far back do we honestly have to go. If it is honestly being claimed that any people have a historical 'right' to a tract of land by view of having been the first there. By this logic England belongs to the ancient Britons and Lower Saxony and Schleswig Holstein belong to the English. The Celts may descend from either the Ardennes or the Alps (depending on which history you believe) and the Germans come from much further to the East. Do all of these people have a historic claim to this or that land by view of having originated there ?
 
colognehornet said:
How far back do we honestly have to go. If it is honestly being claimed that any people have a historical 'right' to a tract of land by view of having been the first there. By this logic England belongs to the ancient Britons and Lower Saxony and Schleswig Holstein belong to the English. The Celts may descend from either the Ardennes or the Alps (depending on which history you believe) and the Germans come from much further to the East. Do all of these people have a historic claim to this or that land by view of having originated there ?
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Few people could deny that those people currently living in the Middle East ALL have some pretty good claim to a right to live in the area. The problem then becomes how to allocate some land fairly to each. The pre 1967 borders of Israel were widely recognised and accepted by most other than some Arabs and Palestinians. I suspect that many Palestinians would now settle for a state bases on the West Bank. For some intransigent Arabs the existence of any state of Israel would not be acceptable but none of us in this life get all we really want.

What amazes me most is the continuation of Hamas and others to use force against Israel. Do they not understand that it can never succeed. Were they to adopt a Gandhi style peaceful protest and aim to win the hearts and minds of all non Israelis they are more likely to get close to what they want.
 
So the Israels have sent their troops in to try and sort out Hamas. The peace discussions that took place failed and there seems to be nothing left if you wish to protect your families and friends. All very sad, but I cannot see what else they could have done at the present time. In the end peace can only be achieved by discussion and agreement, but as we witnessed in Northern Ireland that can take years and Hamas are not anywhere near ready to find a peaceful solution.
 
there will never be peace in the middle east, simply because Hamas and their ilk will not rest until there are no more Israelis and no more Israel, and preferably no more Jewish people worldwide. As Golda Meir said "Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us."

"If the Arabs put down their weapons today there would be no more violence. If the Israelis put down their weapons today there would be no more Israel." Netanyahu.
 
It is just a waste of life.
Israel will have tens of people killed and the Palestinians will have hundreds killed.
Eventually they will sign a peace agreement again.
So why not sign a peace agreement now and save lives.
 
The only way out is through education and a cessation of the hatred instilled in the Palestinians and many other "Arabs" by their mentors in the form of older generations and religious zealots. The evil that is Islam in its corrupted practiced form needs to be eradicated from within the Islamic community itself. There is no Western solution to this problem, it has to come from within the community. The answer is for us to find another planet to colonize and the means to get there and sustain our advanced lifestyle and leave the earth to the primitives to self destruct. Some may think this is a mad or far fetched idea but if the next 5 generations make a fraction of the progress made by the previous 5 on the global stage it would be a piece of cake...
 
Hornette_TID said:
there will never be peace in the middle east, simply because Hamas and their ilk will not rest until there are no more Israelis and no more Israel, and preferably no more Jewish people worldwide. As Golda Meir said "Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us."

"If the Arabs put down their weapons today there would be no more violence. If the Israelis put down their weapons today there would be no more Israel." Netanyahu.
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I cannot disagree with any of that. However the Israelis do themselves no favours in the eyes of the world by continuing to settle the West Bank. That is not their land and never will be. If they were to administer the West Bank with settlements for Palestinians rather than Israelis they would buy themselves friends all over the world. As it is only the US and UK really support the state of Israel. It is not a Jewish thing as Jews exist all over the world independent of Israel. It is about the land handed over to Israel post WWII - the UN can support and justify that but not land annexed by conquest.
 
aberdeenhornet said:
The only way out is through education and a cessation of the hatred instilled in the Palestinians and many other "Arabs" by their mentors in the form of older generations and religious zealots. The evil that is Islam in its corrupted practiced form needs to be eradicated from within the Islamic community itself. There is no Western solution to this problem, it has to come from within the community. The answer is for us to find another planet to colonize and the means to get there and sustain our advanced lifestyle and leave the earth to the primitives to self destruct. Some may think this is a mad or far fetched idea but if the next 5 generations make a fraction of the progress made by the previous 5 on the global stage it would be a piece of cake...
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Are you presuming here that Western civilization does not belong amongst the primitives here? Thus making the same mistake as more or less 2,000 years of Europeanized history in which Western Civilization has never entered into any relationship with non European peoples which was not based on the idea of moral superiority. Both Britain and the U.S.A. have had forces engaged in active service in every single year since world war 2 - under the pretext of peace keeping. We have just emerged from 2 wars, Afghanistan and Iraq, which did not improve anything and were based on lies. Are we, or you, in a position to refer to anyone else as primitive ? When Israel was given to the Jewish people it was done so as a result of the biggest human rights violation in World history - committed on European soil, but for which Arab land was taken away - was that justice ? More just would have been to take away a part of Germany. A decision taken a long way away by powers with colonial ways of thinking who thought that Arab land did not have the same value, because they were, after all, half nomadic. It must have come over with the same logic as the Pope explaining all those years ago (through an envoy) to the South American Indians that their land was now divided between Spain and Portugal. The Israeli response ? Not that Israel has become their homeland by virtue of having had 3 - 4 generations born there since the Balfour treaty. But rather the assumption that it is naturally theirs - by biblical prophesy. A nation based on religion and blood in which no non Jew can gain full citizenship. And a nation which justifies every occupation under the premise of self defence.
 
colognehornet said:
More just would have been to take away a part of Germany. A decision taken a long way away by powers with colonial ways of thinking who thought that Arab land did not have the same value, because they were, after all, half nomadic.
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Agree with most of your argument Cologne. A couple of points though. Yes, had Germany had to forfeit land that may well have been just - however there was no way Jewish people could be expected to be able to settle in lands where their treatment had been so horrific. Secondly Jewish people have a connexion with the lands given over to them. Their ethnic origins are probably as suited to that area as are any others currently claiming the land. The states of Iraq, Syria Jordan etc are all artificial. There is no part of the world that could logically have accepted settlement by a new group without some anger and hostility. By choosing the state of Israel in the Middle East around Jerusalem there was some logic so given that the post war sentiment was to create a safe state for Jews it made as much sense as anywhere else. Had Britain not gone to war it is entirely feasible that the Middle East would have fallen under German domination so Arabs are unlikely to have been happy about that either.
 
From my simplistic viewpoint, though I profess to know nothing of the history of this area, it seems to me that Israel are happy to observe a ceasefire, but certain elements in Palestine are not! All Israel are doing is responding to being attacked!
 
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