Israel - Palestine

[yorkshirehornet]

[video=youtube;vstQUOvTgJ8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vstQUOvTgJ8&feature=kp[/video]



Discuss.....



I don't know how else to introduce this thread. I was going to post yesterday but didn't as I didn't want to cause upset etc. There have been lively and widely differing views in debates on a number of sites I visit.... with great strength of feeling on the different sides.


The video itself is stark... and 'oversimple' ?

 

[wear_yellow]

I saw you having a bit of a debate on this on FB Yorkie. Topic seems to polarise most people into one of the opposing camps and that seems to perpetuate the tragedy...for me each side has to give something up and agree a way to live in peace. Israel needs to immediately stop the illegal settlements that contravene UN directives and clear out all those have been established illegally. Palestine needs to acknowledge the right of Israel to exist and confirm their intent to live in harmony i.e. stop the rockets being lauched into civilian areas. That is enough to start a dialogue to continue to give up the things that is stopping peace.
However, I believe that some of the poiticians on both sides do not really want peace, they want war...so I hold out no hope.

 

[NZHorn]

I saw you having a bit of a debate on this on FB Yorkie. Topic seems to polarise most people into one of the opposing camps and that seems to perpetuate the tragedy...for me each side has to give something up and agree a way to live in peace. Israel needs to immediately stop the illegal settlements that contravene UN directives and clear out all those have been established illegally. Palestine needs to acknowledge the right of Israel to exist and confirm their intent to live in harmony i.e. stop the rockets being lauched into civilian areas. That is enough to start a dialogue to continue to give up the things that is stopping peace.
However, I believe that some of the poiticians on both sides do not really want peace, they want war...so I hold out no hope.

Absolutely agree. Too many people have too much to lose if peace breaks out. At the same time the most vehement anti-Zionists I've met have been Jews. I also taught Palestinian refugees (amongst others) in a previous life, who didn't care who ran the country as long as they could go home and live a safe, normal life.

 

[yorkshirehornet]

I saw you having a bit of a debate on this on FB Yorkie. Topic seems to polarise most people into one of the opposing camps and that seems to perpetuate the tragedy...for me each side has to give something up and agree a way to live in peace. Israel needs to immediately stop the illegal settlements that contravene UN directives and clear out all those have been established illegally. Palestine needs to acknowledge the right of Israel to exist and confirm their intent to live in harmony i.e. stop the rockets being lauched into civilian areas. That is enough to start a dialogue to continue to give up the things that is stopping peace.
However, I believe that some of the poiticians on both sides do not really want peace, they want war...so I hold out no hope.

Agreed... It is if the powers that be (Arab and GB/US) have a desire to keep this conflict going.. as it serves their interests.


But it really polarises opinion.. .and people can be blind about the facts IMO

Absolutely agree. Too many people have too much to lose if peace breaks out. At the same time the most vehement anti-Zionists I've met have been Jews. I also taught Palestinian refugees (amongst others) in a previous life, who didn't care who ran the country as long as they could go home and live a safe, normal life.

I expect most people in Gaza want to live a peaceful life.....

A shame we cant apply international arbitration (shades of Leo... ) to effect a decision here on the two states.

The media hype from both sides is staggering...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28292908

 

[Leo]

Although I agree with almost everything in that video it is clearly favouring the Palestinian side - I would like to see an equivalent one from Israel explaining and defending their position and actions. There are always two views and it would be good to understnad the other side

 

[Bolton's Boots]

Although I agree with almost everything in that video it is clearly favouring the Palestinian side - I would like to see an equivalent one from Israel explaining and defending their position and actions. There are always two views and it would be good to understnad the other side

Unfortunately therein lies the problem - both sides can defend their position and, whilst that is the case, this will never be resolved. As difficult as it is to see any possible end, it's even harder to see where it all started and what, if anything, could have been done to avoid this. If, for example, the Balfour Declaration had been made citing Uganda instead of Palestine - as was one possibility under consideration - the current hostilities may simply have been taking place 2000 miles to the south. About the only certainty is that Britain should have kept its nose out...

 

[Leo]

Unfortunately therein lies the problem - both sides can defend their position and, whilst that is the case, this will never be resolved. As difficult as it is to see any possible end, it's even harder to see where it all started and what, if anything, could have been done to avoid this. If, for example, the Balfour Declaration had been made citing Uganda instead of Palestine - as was one possibility under consideration - the current hostilities may simply have been taking place 2000 miles to the south. About the only certainty is that Britain should have kept its nose out...

I think you can only start to resolve a dispute if you allow both sides to present a case. I would still like to hear the Israeli side.
To say Britain should have kept its nose out is tantamount to saying Britain should never have formed an empire. As a world power we had the mandate to "look after" Palestine as was - I am not sure we ever wanted to do it but the responsibility fell to us. The decision to create the state of Israel found favour with most post WWII folk in the light of what had happened. Agree that the location would not have made a lot of difference -Africa has not proved a stable location and ask the Ugandan Asians how that worked out for them under Idi Amin

 

[oldfrenchhorn]

Just why did Hamas turn down the ceasefire? Seems as if Israel was prepared to go along with it until their civilians found the rockets coming over again. Most of the western world regards Hamas as a terrorist organization, while countries such as Iran, Russia, Turkey, China and some Arab states do not.

In 2006 the United States, Russia, United Nations and European Union agreed to provide support for the Palestinians, providing that Hamas accepted commitment to nonviolence, recognition of the state of Israel, and acceptance of previous agreements. This was turned down so the assistance they could have had never arrived.

Human Right Watch called Hamas to "publicly renounce" the rocket attacks against Israeli civilians and hold those responsible to account. Human Right Watch program director Iain Levine said the attacks by Hamas were "unlawful and unjustifiable, and amount to war crimes", and accused Hamas of putting Palestinians at risk by launching attacks from built-up areas.

The cartoon type piece that started this article mentions none of the help that the Palestinians could have had, and does not mention who produced it. There are many things that Israel have done that cannot be applauded, but let's have some proper information before taking sides.

 

[yorkshirehornet]

The video was produced by a 'malcolmx' looks to be a radical muslim group....

 

[Busy Being Headhunted]

The video was produced by a 'malcolmx' looks to be a radical muslim group....

Not a great idea to put it on here in my opinion
I expect Hornette wil feel the same

 

[wear_yellow]

Not me Yorkie!

 

[yorkshirehornet]

Not me Yorkie!

Gnash Gnash

 

[NZHorn]

To bring some light relief to this discussion:

In the 19th century a lot of Welsh non-conformists were looking for somewhere to emigrate to away from English and Anglican oppression. They ended up in Patagonia but their first choice was Palestine. The Turkish authorities, who controlled the area, didn't want anyone connected with the British Empire moving into their territory. I have often wondered what the Israeli Palestinian situation would have been if the Ottoman Empire had allowed the Welsh to move there. Would it have united all the Semitic peoples of the Middle East irrespective of whether they were Muslim or Jew? Would the Welsh language vie with Hebrew and Arabic?

 

[yorkshirehornet]

To bring some light relief to this discussion:

In the 19th century a lot of Welsh non-conformists were looking for somewhere to emigrate to away from English and Anglican oppression. They ended up in Patagonia but their first choice was Palestine. The Turkish authorities, who controlled the area, didn't want anyone connected with the British Empire moving into their territory. I have often wondered what the Israeli Palestinian situation would have been if the Ottoman Empire had allowed the Welsh to move there. Would it have united all the Semitic peoples of the Middle East irrespective of whether they were Muslim or Jew? Would the Welsh language vie with Hebrew and Arabic?

shame.....

 

[zen guerrilla]

There are a lot of things wrong with the way the Israeli government behaves, likewise the way Hamas does as well. There are conflicting claims as to who was in the region first, certainly there are records naming the inhabitants as "Palestinian" from 4-500BCE, although the Greeks referred to everyone from that area with the same name. The current muslim/Palestinian group are Arabs who arrived after the Semitic peoples who were already there. The Balfour Declaration allowed for limited immigration, but nothing on the scale that did occur and it certainly did not see the then indigenous population SELLING land to the newcomers, in some cases at very high prices. So apart from the land granted in the Mandated Territory for Jewish settlement he incomers in a lot of cases bought extra territory.

One thing many people forget is although the Palestinians have a displaced population in the Middle East, which grows faster than the populations of the countries that take them in, they do/will not integrate with their muslim brothers and they cause all sorts of problems that their hosts should not have to deal with.

 

[Bolton's Boots]

There are conflicting claims as to who was in the region first, certainly there are records naming the inhabitants as "Palestinian" from 4-500BCE, although the Greeks referred to everyone from that area with the same name. The current muslim/Palestinian group are Arabs who arrived after the Semitic peoples who were already there.

You're saying that as though being there first was the deciding factor in who should be there now?

 

[Leo]

I think both groups have a right to exist in that area - for centuries at least both have a claim to it as a "home".

The problem seems to me that many Arabs will not accept the right of Israel to exist. If I were Israeli that would make me feel very vulnerable and frightened - frightened people will naturally be defensive - and often aggressive. I would still like to see Israel actually come out and explain exactly what it believes.

In my humble opinion Israel should go back to its pre 1967 war borders. Although that loses them strategic ground if it ever came to war their nuclear weapons would always pose a threat more than ground forces. Palestinians should be given the West Bank as a state of their own. Jerusalem should be given "Vatican City" status - an intermnational holy city. In return all Arab countries should accept those borders and the legitimate existence of Israel. By no means a perfect solution and would annoy and upset as many as it pleases but it goes back to a status that existed for over 20 years post WWII.

The UN should make it clear that it would not accept any revision to those boundaries and would if necessary by force act to re-establish them should either party try to alter them.

It wont happen. You may say that I'm a dreamer but I'm not the only one.

 

[yorkshirehornet]

........................

It wont happen. You may say that I'm a dreamer but I'm not the only one.

me neither......

Agree with all of this ..

 

[Deleted 1]

I think both groups have a right to exist in that area - for centuries at least both have a claim to it as a "home".

The problem seems to me that many Arabs will not accept the right of Israel to exist. If I were Israeli that would make me feel very vulnerable and frightened - frightened people will naturally be defensive - and often aggressive. I would still like to see Israel actually come out and explain exactly what it believes.

In my humble opinion Israel should go back to its pre 1967 war borders. Although that loses them strategic ground if it ever came to war their nuclear weapons would always pose a threat more than ground forces. Palestinians should be given the West Bank as a state of their own. Jerusalem should be given "Vatican City" status - an intermnational holy city. In return all Arab countries should accept those borders and the legitimate existence of Israel. By no means a perfect solution and would annoy and upset as many as it pleases but it goes back to a status that existed for over 20 years post WWII.

The UN should make it clear that it would not accept any revision to those boundaries and would if necessary by force act to re-establish them should either party try to alter them.

It wont happen. You may say that I'm a dreamer but I'm not the only one.

That's always been my view of it too. Whilst some actions from Israel have been unpalatable (usually for the reasons Leo has already stated) , until the Arab mindset, and associated behaviour changes, I don't see how progress can ever really be made.

I must also say that whilst I understand Yorkie's unease about posting this I'm glad he did - this is one of the best discussions i've seen about it and have certainly learned new things from it. Obviously it is an emotive subject but it is one which is at the forefront of the global agenda. As long as it doesn't go down any blatantly anti Semetic, or indeed, any Islamaphobic route I don't really see a problem with it and would hope that those for whom this is closer to home wouldn't take offence either.

This board has really come into its own over the last couple of weeks - some brilliant debate on a range of subjects with opposing views but acceptance of differing opinions. Cracking stuff.

 

[yorkshirehornet]

That's always been my view of it too. Whilst some actions from Israel have been unpalatable (usually for the reasons Leo has already stated) , until the Arab mindset, and associated behaviour changes, I don't see how progress can ever really be made.

I must also say that whilst I understand Yorkie's unease about posting this I'm glad he did - this is one of the best discussions i've seen about it and have certainly learned new things from it. Obviously it is an emotive subject but it is one which is at the forefront of the global agenda. As long as it doesn't go down any blatantly anti Semetic, or indeed, any Islamaphobic route I don't really see a problem with it and would hope that those for whom this is closer to home wouldn't take offence either.

This board has really come into its own over the last couple of weeks - some brilliant debate on a range of subjects with opposing views but acceptance of differing opinions. Cracking stuff.

Yes... in various for a the Palestine/Israel debate has been emotive an polarising. It is good to dig below the surface a bit and go beyond that..... thanks all...