I have to say, I am learning so much from this thread, you are an incredibly knowledgeable group of people! 
Israel - Palestine
- Thread starter yorkshirehornet
- Start date
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This has been a very interesting thread, particularly in that although it has involved a high level of debate, we all basically agree with each other. We all think that Israel should continue to exist. We all think however that the new settlements are illegal and that Israel should withdraw to it's original boundaries. We all condemn rockets from the one side, and bombing of hospitals on the other. And we all tend to the idea that some sort of joint administration of Jerusalem would be part of a lasting solution.
The issue of Israel (the state), a fundamental Zionism, the Jews as a people, and Judaeism as a religion being so synonimous with each other that a protest against any one of these elements is seen as anti semitism (as Zen has pointed out the term is misleading- but we have no other) makes for complications. When we see stained glass window depictions of Jews drinking the blood of Christian babies (as can still be seen in some Catholic churches in Europe) then the thing is completely religious - with little evidence of racism - or at least no more than was normal in the middle ages. What happened in Nazi Germany was a result of a biological analysis of mankind - a kind of perverted Darwinism which did not have a religious element. Demonstrating against the Israeli embassy (there is no Hamas embassy to demonstrate against) can only be seen as suspect if accompanied by actions taken against synagogues or against Jewish people as a whole. Often these become intertwined however because of the Jewish identification between State people and religion.
We can throw many accusations in the direction of Islam but racism is not one of them. They are not anti semitic (because they are semitic). They belong to a multi cultural 'Nation of Islam' where Arabs are the minority - the largest populations of Moslems being in Indonesia, India, Pakistan and Turkey but which also includes Chinese moslems and a great number of not only Africans but also converted black Americans (and also converted Britons of Jamaican origins) - those latter having converted to Islam precisely because that religion did not depict a white Jesus. I believe the history of Islam does not demonstrate an inherant hatred of the Jewish race or religion and that their present animosity to Israel is rather centred upon a land dispute and on Jerusalem.
Unfortunately demos against Israel now contain many disparate elements. A recent demo here was called by the youth wing of 'Die Linke' (broadly like Socialist Labour in England) - had a very large Turkish element, the traditional Palestinians and also sections from the radical right NPD etc. In other words contained groupings which would normally have been at each others throat, and which allowed for no central discipline - and therein lies a problem. In fact there is absolutely no reason why the far left should be anti Israel or anti Jewish because so many Jewish intellectuals have been active in establishing European socialism - for them it may be simply an extension of their anti Americanism.
The issue of Israel (the state), a fundamental Zionism, the Jews as a people, and Judaeism as a religion being so synonimous with each other that a protest against any one of these elements is seen as anti semitism (as Zen has pointed out the term is misleading- but we have no other) makes for complications. When we see stained glass window depictions of Jews drinking the blood of Christian babies (as can still be seen in some Catholic churches in Europe) then the thing is completely religious - with little evidence of racism - or at least no more than was normal in the middle ages. What happened in Nazi Germany was a result of a biological analysis of mankind - a kind of perverted Darwinism which did not have a religious element. Demonstrating against the Israeli embassy (there is no Hamas embassy to demonstrate against) can only be seen as suspect if accompanied by actions taken against synagogues or against Jewish people as a whole. Often these become intertwined however because of the Jewish identification between State people and religion.
We can throw many accusations in the direction of Islam but racism is not one of them. They are not anti semitic (because they are semitic). They belong to a multi cultural 'Nation of Islam' where Arabs are the minority - the largest populations of Moslems being in Indonesia, India, Pakistan and Turkey but which also includes Chinese moslems and a great number of not only Africans but also converted black Americans (and also converted Britons of Jamaican origins) - those latter having converted to Islam precisely because that religion did not depict a white Jesus. I believe the history of Islam does not demonstrate an inherant hatred of the Jewish race or religion and that their present animosity to Israel is rather centred upon a land dispute and on Jerusalem.
Unfortunately demos against Israel now contain many disparate elements. A recent demo here was called by the youth wing of 'Die Linke' (broadly like Socialist Labour in England) - had a very large Turkish element, the traditional Palestinians and also sections from the radical right NPD etc. In other words contained groupings which would normally have been at each others throat, and which allowed for no central discipline - and therein lies a problem. In fact there is absolutely no reason why the far left should be anti Israel or anti Jewish because so many Jewish intellectuals have been active in establishing European socialism - for them it may be simply an extension of their anti Americanism.
Simplistically on the back of popular vote from Israeli-bombed Palestianians.
Both those statements are negative and only serve to extend hatred. Neither would help a solution and both entrench people's positions
I am seriously thinking of coming off Facebook and Twitter. The amount of anti Israel and anti Jewish posts is scary. I am beginning to fear and that doesn't feel good. Mostly, in this world that grows madder by the minute, I fear for my children. 
I am seriously thinking of coming off Facebook and Twitter. The amount of anti Israel and anti Jewish posts is scary. I am beginning to fear and that doesn't feel good. Mostly, in this world that grows madder by the minute, I fear for my children.
The world is only so big and it is becoming smaller, I am not well educated on this thread's topic. However, it shows all humans can't get along. It only takes one bad apple to ruin the cider, Governments stir it up and media add the sugar. There are only two types of people in the world, controlling and slaves, which, for me, means rich and poor. One day everyone will be together, I dream of this day, but until now no one has put extacy in the water system. No, I am not saying that is the cure. However, it might need such a drastic measure to get all of us, from the same DNA, to function as one, and to PLEASEEEEEEEEEEE live together and function as a RACE, we are all the same (BAR Luton) ijjiijji.
Ours certainly does - and this shows on which side their allegiance lies. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative_Friends_of_Israel
Nothing at all do with the arms industry I suppose...
What about the Labour Friends of Israel group in Parliament BB? Looks like a pretty strong group with the leading members of the party involved.
http://www.lfi.org.uk/news/
http://www.lfi.org.uk/news/
I am seriously thinking of coming off Facebook and Twitter. The amount of anti Israel and anti Jewish posts is scary. I am beginning to fear and that doesn't feel good. Mostly, in this world that grows madder by the minute, I fear for my children.
I was quite shocked by how strong some of it is H. I'm also surprised at the accusations of BBC bias. I'm no expert but thought they were doing a reasonable job of trying to be even handed about it. I fully accept, of course, that those with a personal interest on either side of the argument may fel they're not getting a fair hearing.
Can somebody help me please? Who can explain how this is not a flagrant breach of the rules. How can the England board defend it?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cricket/28535184
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cricket/28535184
Don't really know dave - it does appear to be an undefendable breach of the rules. Maybe the ECB having Etihad Airways as a main sponsor has something to do with it...
I'm surprised the ECB came out so quickly to defend him - at the least i would have expected them to say they were investigating and would make a decision in due course etc. as they usually do. I agree re Etihad and also think they wanted to avoid any flack for curbing freedom of expression- even though their rules explicitly forbid it in some circumstances! Still, if anyone in the squad has strong feelings of support for Israel at least they now know they are free to show that support without threat of censure
Still, if anyone in the squad has strong feelings of support for Israel at least they now know they are free to show that support without threat of censure
True - and with the current state of play in the Test match, wouldn't the Indians just love that sort of friction to appear in the English ranks...
It would appear that Ali wore the bands to make a humanitarian statement rather than a political one, which is why the ECB backed him. The match referee has overruled them though - David Boon. Holder of the record for the most cans of beer drunk on a Sydney-London flight, I'm surprised he was sober enough to notice the bands.
It would appear that Ali wore the bands to make a humanitarian statement rather than a political one, which is why the ECB backed him. The match referee has overruled them though - David Boon. Holder of the record for the most cans of beer drunk on a Sydney-London flight, I'm surprised he was sober enough to notice the bands.
Thanks BB, though how it can be on humanitarian grounds when they are the ones that keep breaking the ceasefire I really don't know!
Talking to an Israeli this morning I think you'd find another perspective very easily. His cousin's apartment was flattened by a rocket, his mum went to clean up with a broom, bless her. Every 5 minutes they are hearing sirens and running for shelters. A nursery school was shelled nearby. They shrug their shoulders...he said "what's another rocket? We've lived with it before, we live with it again". Brave Israelis who are always the ones made to look guilty by the media, but struggle every day to stay safe and worry about family, friends and children. If hamas would stop the rockets and attacks on Israel, Israel would stop defending themselves in the way that they are. This is not about Israel v Palestinians, this is about Hama's v Israel..a completely different thing altogether.
That's what I don't understand H, Israel are under constant attack by Hamas, yet so many people are criticising Israel for defending their people and their land! It just doesn't make sense!
Tend to agree with you there, dave. I'm, if anything, an impartial outsider but really can't understand the media bias in favour of Palestine. From what I can gather, they are simply hurting themselves through their continued actions.