Is Warnock Right?

  • Please bear with us on the new site integration and fixing any known bugs over the coming days. If you can not log in please try resetting your password and check your spam box. If you have tried these steps and are still struggling email [email protected] with your username/registered email address
  • Log in now to remove adverts - no adverts at all to registered members!
Y

Yorkiegit26

Member
Apr 30, 2018
58
40
18
72
Warnock has said that 'we have the best league in the world and the worst referees'

Some might say that part of the beauty of the game is that each match raises talking points (usually centred around a decision from the men in black) and that at the end of the day the refs are only human

Every supporter has witnessed terrible decisions going against and for their team, but that shocking decision against Cardiff was probably as bad as it gets and with the money at stake these days I feel I agree with NW that the refs are simply not up to it

Now the tricky bit, how do we improve the refereeing? VAR is a step, younger ex footballers as refs maybe, or perhaps un complicate certain rules with the offside rule being the most obvious example. But would this eliminate the most ridiculous decisions that we have seen.

Because football has gotten incredibly faster over the years is it time we looked at having two refs and four linesman on the pitch, not realistic to expect a ref to keep up with play or expect a linesman to spot who`s throw in it is from 30 yards away

One ref to each half of the pitch along with a linesman on both sides of the pitch in each half?

What do you guys think
 
  • Like
Reactions: Southcoastoldgaffer
It's an interesting debate, and one that can, and will rumble on forever.
I have sympathy with Colin, but my overriding feeling is, is that both the linesmen and referee's are only human, and they can and will make mistakes. You could say that the linesman's view was possibly blocked by Willian, and i'm sure if he saw it, he would've given it.
I don't agree that they are the worst, i've seen some shocking refereeing in European and international games.

But, as you have mentioned above, the changes in the rules constantly don't help. I would like it to go back to the old system where if a player is off side, regardless of if he's interfering with play, then he's off side. I find it ridiculous that an attacking player can stand two feet from the goalie and still not be flagged offside because he didn't "attempt" to go for the ball.

I don't think having two ref's would work - again, it's making things more technical and confusing - just simplify the rules! If you're offside, you're offside, simples.

And also, we all have to accept that sometimes mistakes happen, and decisions go against our team, which could ultimately lead to a goal (including throws, corners, goal kicks, free kicks and penalties)

The bureaucracy running our game nowadays is a joke, and the confusing rules don't help.

I mean, so what if a ball is two inches outside the corner area (how ridiculous do the linesmen look when telling players to move it back an inch or two),
And so what if a ball is slightly in motion when taking a free kick, or whether it was not quite in the right spot. That is what is spoiling the game, too much petty rules. Just let players get on with it, and get rid of these petty rules which spoil the game.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Southcoastoldgaffer
It's debatable that the Premier League is the best league in the world, but it certainly doesn't have the worst standard of refereeing. The issue with the perceived poor standard of refereeing, as you say further down Yorkie, is that the game has got faster. That's effectively the issue. The referees of the 00s, 90s, and beyond would seriously struggle with the pace of the game today, so refereeing mistakes are going to be made and they're going to be more regular. That's why I believe VAR is necessary, because it will generally mitigate these mistakes (although work is needed to develop VAR to benefit the viewers and match-going attendees). It's also worth noting that we are struggling to bring through referees into the national game, mainly due to the abuse they receive, which has become magnified and more widespread via social media. So maybe we're losing a few potentially good referees that way?

Predictably Neil Warnock will complain when the referee makes a mistake, as most managers do, and he will stand back laughing and chalk it up as 'you win some, you lose some' when he benefits from a refereeing error (last minute winner against Brighton earlier this season, for example). Managers will continue to lament refereeing errors and use them to disguise their tactical failings or use as a convenient scapegoat for not getting the result they wanted. The media will continue to use refereeing errors as the main talking point, easier to talk about and, when the argument should be based on the 'wronged' team's inability to get their desired result over 90 minutes of football.

The rules should be tweaked, particularly the offside law. Like pregnancy, you're either offside or you're onside, you're not 'a bit offside' or 'just about level'. It should be black and white, on or off. And it should be enforced consistently. Likewise penalty decisions, for example what constitutes handball? They've recently tweaked the meaning, but again it sounds too general. Simulation is a problem, but referees are generally getting better penalising divers. The beauty of football is that while it's a simple game to play and understand, the interpretation of the rules (handball, fouls etc) appear to be more nuanced and grey rather than clearly defined, so managers, pundits, and supporters will continue to exploit the grey area of football rules to create convenient scapegoats for their team's failures.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Southcoastoldgaffer and Scowey
I don’t think VAR coming in has to do with justice, it has everything to do with continuously changing the game to keep bums on seats.

Poor old Swansea should be in an FA Cup semi final but for a ridiculous set of circumstances were robbed by Man City. So - in cup games it matters up to a point.

In League games in spite of what’s happened to Cardiff here i don’t think it does. If you are depending one game or decision to survive then you deserve whatever fate dishes out, frankly.

The problem is with VAR that it is NOT going to lead to the correct decisions being made. Instead it is going to just open up a different can of worms and wrong decisions. Worse still; in many instances the game is to continue to see if a goal is produced. That is going to take the decision away from the human eye and give it to lines drawn on a photo, which we have seen do not account for upper bodies and heads to be on or offside. Humans are such powerful computers -the human eye is sharp, really sharp, which is why most right or wrong decisions are all about interpretation and not about what has been seen.

To me it's not acceptable for VAR to change the way the game is actually played. In some cases play is going to continue to a new phase before a goal is scored. There is no way for the linesman to signal an infringement if he is being instructed to keep his flag down. Players should play to the whistle anyway - so the solution is for the linesman to raise his flag and for the ref not to blow his whistle until the phase is completed.

So the obvious solution is not VAR but removing ambiguous interpretation from the laws of the game.

But - it’s coming and there’s sod all we can do about it now. It’s been rushed and it’s not ready but it’s gone too far to retreat.
 
Last edited:
It's a typical Colin sound bite,I'm sure he doesn't really believe the "worst referees in the world" bit,but it's provoked debate which is probably his desired intent.

On the whole VAR,offside rule question I'm a bit of a Luddite.Football across the world is a simple game,anywhere you find a couple of kids together with anything remotely ball shaped they can take part in the "beautiful game".My fear is that so called improvements in the higher levels of the sport move it away from these grass roots.
I can see a situation where a group of youngsters playing footie no longer put the fat kid (question is these days which fat kid?) in goal, but appoint him VARer filming the play on his phone so that any controversial incident can be reviewed!

The offside rule came about to stop goal hanging and now the result is much of the play is compressed into a very small area when a game is restarted from a goal kick etc and every decision is reviewed in minute detail with the aid of 101 camera angles.I'd be in favour of getting back to basics,did the player gain a noticable advantage from being in an offside position?Not, was his nose a third of an inch in front of the defender when the ball was kicked?

Players make mistakes,managers make mistakes,we all,as humans,make mistakes and most refs are human(I'm excluding Clive effing Thomas from that description!).Yes,we want the best possible refs to oversee the Premiership but accept from time to time they will make a genuine error.With the flack they get at local level even in school-age games I'm surprised so many great individuals are prepared to put themselves forward as amateur refs.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Southcoastoldgaffer
Bigalreigned said:
It's a typical Colin sound bite,I'm sure he doesn't really believe the "worst referees in the world" bit,but it's provoked debate which is probably his desired intent.

On the whole VAR,offside rule question I'm a bit of a Luddite.Football across the world is a simple game,anywhere you find a couple of kids together with anything remotely ball shaped they can take part in the "beautiful game".My fear is that so called improvements in the higher levels of the sport move it away from these grass roots.
I can see a situation where a group of youngsters playing footie no longer put the fat kid (question is these days which fat kid?) in goal, but appoint him VARer filming the play on his phone so that any controversial incident can be reviewed!

The offside rule came about to stop goal hanging and now the result is much of the play is compressed into a very small area when a game is restarted from a goal kick etc and every decision is reviewed in minute detail with the aid of 101 camera angles.I'd be in favour of getting back to basics,did the player gain a noticable advantage from being in an offside position?Not, was his nose a third of an inch in front of the defender when the ball was kicked?

Players make mistakes,managers make mistakes,we all,as humans,make mistakes and most refs are human(I'm excluding Clive effing Thomas from that description!).Yes,we want the best possible refs to oversee the Premiership but accept from time to time they will make a genuine error.With the flack they get at local level even in school-age games I'm surprised so many great individuals are prepared to put themselves forward as amateur refs.
Click to expand...

Never mind the kids in the park - the technology wasn't even available to Swansea!

When this becomes normal to everyone then what next? The game is unrecognisable from the game of the 1980s. Let’s have a season where the committee says ‘this game is not bad, let’s leave it be this year.’
 
I don't actually mind Warnock that much, He's a bit of a plank who comes from old school of football management and spouts nonsense at regular intervals (sounds familiar) but I've never particularly liked Cardiff. The change of kits, Racism allegations against staff etc. mean I find them a difficult club to warm to.

On a tangent (I know) But the the whole Sala incident and saga that has followed where they have shown absolutely no class whatsoever, they have gone so far down in my estimations I'd put them in a select list of clubs I really dislike. I hope they get relegated, and FIFA investigate the whole transfer legality and force Cardiff to pay Nantes the full fee they are owed, as well as paying out to the families of Sala and the Pilot. It feels like this is a watershed moment for FIFA and hopefully they can investigate thoroughly and if (which I accept I am already assuming they are guilty) they are found in breach of regulations they face a substantial fine and transfer ban and exposed as the heartless, opportunistic charlatans that they are...

That said, I don't think any fan (or follower) of football wants to see mistakes like the one at the weekend, particularity if it can impact on the final results and is yet another example of 'Big Club' gets the rub of the green against 'Small Club'
 
  • Like
Reactions: Southcoastoldgaffer
Scowey said:
I don't actually mind Warnock that much, He's a bit of a plank who comes from old school of football management and spouts nonsense at regular intervals (sounds familiar) but I've never particularly liked Cardiff. The change of kits, Racism allegations against staff etc. mean I find them a difficult club to warm to.

On a tangent (I know) But the the whole Sala incident and saga that has followed where they have shown absolutely no class whatsoever, they have gone so far down in my estimations I'd put them in a select list of clubs I really dislike. I hope they get relegated, and FIFA investigate the whole transfer legality and force Cardiff to pay Nantes the full fee they are owed, as well as paying out to the families of Sala and the Pilot. It feels like this is a watershed moment for FIFA and hopefully they can investigate thoroughly and if (which I accept I am already assuming they are guilty) they are found in breach of regulations they face a substantial fine and transfer ban and exposed as the heartless, opportunistic charlatans that they are...

That said, I don't think any fan (or follower) of football wants to see mistakes like the one at the weekend, particularity if it can impact on the final results and is yet another example of 'Big Club' gets the rub of the green against 'Small Club'
Click to expand...

Regarding Sala. I’m sorry that it’s not very nice but it’s a legal and contractual issue.

FIFA / UEFA / the FA may want to look at it to make sure that it can’t happen again. But if the transfer was not completed then why should it be Cardiff that loses the £15m instead of Nantes?

It’s not a case of being guilty - if they look at it and lawfully he was Cardiff’s player they will have to pay up. If Nantes can legally enforce late payment fines under their terms then that’s a matter for them.

If there is a fund for the family that is an entirely separate issue from this dispute.
 
YorkieLancsHampyLondoner said:
But if the transfer was not completed then why should it be Cardiff that loses the £15m instead of Nantes?
Click to expand...

Cardiff announced the deal was confirmed (along with a picture of him at the club holding the scarf) and he was registered with the FA

They have dragged their heels and slung mud at the agent claiming it was negligence on his part and Nantes should have paid for/arranged the transport... Even though they had already announced him as their player <confused>

They've also made allegations against the agent (which may well be accurate) but Cardiff have previously signed both of the agent's 2 sons on long term contracts, having not played any level of football previously.. Which was clearly a dodgy inclusion to a previous deal in order for the agent to push a certain player their way.

All in all it's a sorry situation and tragic for the Player and his family. Hopefully it shines a light on all the dodgy goings on between clubs and agents as I am well aware that this is not an isolated incident, just one that has seen such a tragic conclusion
 
Scowey said:
Cardiff have previously signed both of the agent's 2 sons on long term contracts, having not played any level of football previously.. Which was clearly a dodgy inclusion to a previous deal in order for the agent to push a certain player their way.
Click to expand...

Did not know about this - that sounds very dodgy indeed.

Holding a scarf aloft though has no contractual basis in law as far as I know. The contract contains a list of conditions that have to have been met - a series of registrations that were not completed - for the transfer to have been finalised and my understand is that the conditions were not met.

Bring in a rule that players can't be revealed, something like that perhaps.

But to my mind the only person who is culpable here is the pilot for flying without the appropriate training and license.
 
Last edited:
Scowey said:
The paperwork lodged with the FA two days before his disappearance does however
Click to expand...
"
A Cardiff source said the transfer agreement stipulated - at the request of Nantes - that the Football Association of Wales and France's Ligue de Football Professional had to confirm the registration to both clubs by 22 January, along with confirmation of the international transfer certificate being released.

The Premier League also had to clear the registration.

The Bluebirds insist the terms of the contract maintains that if any parts of that arrangement were not confirmed, then the deal would be null and void.

They claim:
  • Ligue de Football Professionel had not contacted Cardiff either before or after 22 January.
  • The FAW did not confirm with Nantes.
  • The Ligue de Football Professional did not confirm with Nantes until 25 January.
"

If Nantes inserted these clauses into the agreement and these conditions were not met then that is really their problem.
 
Scowey said:
I don't actually mind Warnock that much, He's a bit of a plank who comes from old school of football management and spouts nonsense at regular intervals (sounds familiar) but I've never particularly liked Cardiff. The change of kits, Racism allegations against staff etc. mean I find them a difficult club to warm to.

On a tangent (I know) But the the whole Sala incident and saga that has followed where they have shown absolutely no class whatsoever, they have gone so far down in my estimations I'd put them in a select list of clubs I really dislike. I hope they get relegated, and FIFA investigate the whole transfer legality and force Cardiff to pay Nantes the full fee they are owed, as well as paying out to the families of Sala and the Pilot. It feels like this is a watershed moment for FIFA and hopefully they can investigate thoroughly and if (which I accept I am already assuming they are guilty) they are found in breach of regulations they face a substantial fine and transfer ban and exposed as the heartless, opportunistic charlatans that they are...

That said, I don't think any fan (or follower) of football wants to see mistakes like the one at the weekend, particularity if it can impact on the final results and is yet another example of 'Big Club' gets the rub of the green against 'Small Club'
Click to expand...

so your dislike for Cardiff>>>>>>kit change>>>im sorry but that was down 2 a man who didn't understand tradition in british football and agreed he did the wrong thing then changed us back 2 what the fans wanted>>>>>>>>>racism>>>>>seriously every club has a racist even yours so please don't single Cardiff out as the only club......sorry fella but you seem like a bitter twat that has had his arse handed 2 him by us Cardiff city lot whilst giving the big one about sheep sex

by the way would you pay for something that didn't arrive...........you`d be a mug if you did...............Cardiff had arranged a legit flight for sala he didn't use it and it cost him his life>>>>>>>>>>now really speaking this case needs 2 get the facts straight before someone like yourself tries using this incident against a club because it suits your agenda.

sorry fella but the only racist one I can see here is not Cardiff city its the guy you look at in the mirror each and every day.
 
Yorkiegit26 said:
Warnock has said that 'we have the best league in the world and the worst referees'

Some might say that part of the beauty of the game is that each match raises talking points (usually centred around a decision from the men in black) and that at the end of the day the refs are only human

Every supporter has witnessed terrible decisions going against and for their team, but that shocking decision against Cardiff was probably as bad as it gets and with the money at stake these days I feel I agree with NW that the refs are simply not up to it

Now the tricky bit, how do we improve the refereeing? VAR is a step, younger ex footballers as refs maybe, or perhaps un complicate certain rules with the offside rule being the most obvious example. But would this eliminate the most ridiculous decisions that we have seen.

Because football has gotten incredibly faster over the years is it time we looked at having two refs and four linesman on the pitch, not realistic to expect a ref to keep up with play or expect a linesman to spot who`s throw in it is from 30 yards away

One ref to each half of the pitch along with a linesman on both sides of the pitch in each half?

What do you guys think
Click to expand...

var is not needed we as fans should just get fully fit and fully professional un bias high standard referees..........JOBS A GOOD UN
 
From various news sources.. There were 3 key contentious parts to the transfer

1) Being registered with the FAW (Which He Was two days prior to his Death)
2) The FAW need to provide an International Transfer Certificate (They hadn't)
3) Needs to be registered with the Premier League (Wasn't)

"Sala was in effect a Cardiff player, but needed the International Transfer Certificate before he could be registered to play in different competitions."

By virtue of being a Cardiff player, he no longer is a Nantes employee and whether he is then eligible to play in the Premier League is irrelevant. Also, Nantes counter claim of 'intent to buy' is surely a key factor given he was registered with the FAW


The reality is that none of this should ever have made the public domain as Cardiff could and should have kept an open dialogue with Nantes and discussed this behind closed doors to come to some kind of agreement. The fact they are trying to wriggle out of a £15m shows them in an incredibly poor light, regardless of the legality as two men tragically lost their lives.
 
aberdude said:
so your dislike for Cardiff>>>>>>kit change>>>im sorry but that was down 2 a man who didn't understand tradition in british football and agreed he did the wrong thing then changed us back 2 what the fans wanted>>>>>>>>>racism>>>>>seriously every club has a racist even yours so please don't single Cardiff out as the only club......sorry fella but you seem like a bitter twat that has had his arse handed 2 him by us Cardiff city lot whilst giving the big one about sheep sex

by the way would you pay for something that didn't arrive...........you`d be a mug if you did...............Cardiff had arranged a legit flight for sala he didn't use it and it cost him his life>>>>>>>>>>now really speaking this case needs 2 get the facts straight before someone like yourself tries using this incident against a club because it suits your agenda.

sorry fella but the only racist one I can see here is not Cardiff city its the guy you look at in the mirror each and every day.
Click to expand...

Wow

Are you new here? Who have you come as?
 
Christ - you don't half talk some **** on here about Cardiff and the Sala situation. The fact that the club announced Sala as signed means absolutely nothing in contractual law - this whole sorry issue is being driven by the respective insurance companies not the club. He was announced as signed because they believed at the time that he was.

It isn't as if the poor guy was unemployed at the time of his tragic death in terms of being an "out of contract free agent". He was either oficiallly a Cardiff player, or if not as now seems the case, still contracted to his then current club Nantes. This is the matter of fact that needs to be established by the authorities.

If he was a Cardiff registered player then the club should take it on the chin, but only then will the club's insurers be liable, otherwise Nantes would need to invoke their own policy. The flight issues, the plane, the pilot and relevant licences, the McKays and the rest of the whipped up peripheral issues are irrelevant at the moment. The first thing that needs to be established is the contractual situation and that will then determine what happens next.

The intent was obviously there and in principle and emotionally he was a Cardiff player at the time of his tragic death, but insurance companies do not pay out on emotion, just facts. His transfer and registration with the various footballing authorities as a Cardiff City player was rejected because of errors on documents submitted by both clubs. If Cardiff had made that first payment on the due date it would have been tantamount to admitting liability - there is no way their insurers would countenance that in the same way you are told by insurers never to admit liability in a road traffic accident.

It seems difficult for some to to grasp, but once Sala's official "footballing status" that fateful night is established, it would be up to the liable club to pursue recompense from third parties. Nobody is going to come out of this smelling of roses, but I for one would like to see the parasitic agents and their cohorts get a right shafting.

This may all seem a bit accademic to you when when dealing with emotional issues, but get your real heads on - this is all about business. Stop squawking about how "badly" CCFC football club is behaving - you simply have no idea of what you're talking about. The other side issue mentioned that McKays younger twin sons Jack and Paul were signed to Cardiff's under 23 squad from Leeds a couple of years back is another red herring unless you work for the Daily Mail.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back