How long do we give him?

[robbieBB]

....and exactly where do we stand in the real world right now ? I thought we were entering our third season as a top flight club with one of the best squads we have ever had ? Basically I would like us to stay there and with the group of players Hughton has assembled that really should be a given IMO. All I'm guilty of is criticising the manager and his tactics and I'm not the only one. If, Mr Superman, all you are going to do is comeback with yet another one of your patronising, sanctimonious, holier than thou, 'I know better than you' comments don't bother !

KIO, the sentence I've highlighted in your post is exactly what superman is referring to. How many clubs in the PL this season can really take it as "given" that they will be in the PL next season? In the real world, at least ten can not, us amongst them. As for having one of the best squads ever, even if that is true what matters is how good the squad is relative to those of our competitors, not how good it is relative to the NCFC squad of e.g. last year, or two years ago, or whatever.

 

[Superman wears Grant Holt pyjamas in bed]

Not lambasted, but I think that's very harsh.

I would challenge anybody who would suggest that our football from January through to April wasn't, predominantly, turgid. I think KIO is right about that, and I agree with him that it's a problem that has not been, yet, satisfactorily resolved. Where I would disagree with him is that I see the shoots of recovery, especially in the way we are trying to play, even if not in the way our players are executing it because the squad is not yet settled. Anybody who is absolutely satisfied with our performance right now is, presumably, high. It's too early to judge, but I'm confident that what I've seen suggests we'll come good. I'm not certain of that, because there are still, undeniably, some glaring deficiencies in our play that may not be resolved, but only time will tell. I'll come back on this one at Christmas.

it was a generalisation, not focusing on any one aspect. the jokey 'clock' just about sums up why he lacks understanding or if he does understand, pretends he doesn't. we are a work in progress and will be for more than just this season so to suggest the 'clock is ticking' is failing to understand the situation the club finds itself in. i went into in in far more depth on the other thread so won't repeat myself on here - suffice to say kickitoff got the brunt of my frustration on here which is perhaps unfair as he is not alone - but equally he is one of the main posters who cannot seemingly grasp where the club is right now, ie in transition, and will continue to be for some time to come. sacking a manager who has a long term plan would probably the most stupid thing our club have done in the last thirty years and lets face it, they've done some pretty stupid stuff! thankfully, mcnally knows what he is doing so the 'ones who fail to understand' won't get their way.

 

[Superman wears Grant Holt pyjamas in bed]

KIO, the sentence I've highlighted in your post is exactly what superman is referring to. How many clubs in the PL this season can really take it as "given" that they will be in the PL next season? In the real world, at least ten can not, us amongst them. As for having one of the best squads ever, even if that is true what matters is how good the squad is relative to those of our competitors, not how good it is relative to the NCFC squad of e.g. last year, or two years ago, or whatever.

exactly!

this is why i find it so frustrating and why i say some fans don't truly understand the position the club is in right now.

i feel i'm quite within my right to say that as it should be obvious, or so you'd think!

 

[Fenland Canary]

Personally all I care about is us staying the PL this season, sure it would be great to finish in the top ten but if were in the 15th-17th places I won't be surprised. If Hughton finishes down in the those places I doubt he will be given the boot, developing the squad is going to take a few years. CH and DM do have a long term plan, they don't just fly by the seat of their pants.

 

[RiverEndRick]

Having followed this discussion with interest, it's interesting to look at what Paul Lambert said after his side's third straight defeat, especially the latest to Newcastle at home:

"You always get annoyed when you get beaten and you're disappointed to lose. You've got to give Newcastle credit, they played well and on the day we probably didn't deserve to win the game. But sometimes you hold your hand up and say 'we've been beaten' and then go on to the next one. That's what we have done this week. The lads have been training well. We will go again on Saturday. I'm certainly not going to let one performance get me down."

One game is never enough to make major decisions about anything, IMO.

 

[Carbrooke Canary]

Or even several.... The reality is we lost a football match to a very good side who played well when we didn't, best we get used to it, it is going to happen again, probably quite often. Are we really going to debate sacking the manager every time that happens?

 

[robbieBB]

Or even several.... The reality is we lost a football match to a very good side who played well when we didn't, best we get used to it, it is going to happen again, probably quite often. Are we really going to debate sacking the manager every time that happens?

On past evidence, yes. :-((

 

[K E M P]

I have been watching these threads and i can't believe that people want CH out already.

We lost to a really good side and we payed badly away from home...... And people are overacting terribly. I can see what Hughton is try to do and the signings he has made will start to gel and things will inprove the more the season progresses.

Give the guy a break, he kept us up last season when we were in real trouble when Lambert left us and had no time to do what he wanted and build his own side but he was pragmatic and kept us up as was his brief. Ok the football was not the best but we stayed up.

What do People want? Do you think we are side that are competing for titles or to get into europe? Or one that has developed a style and progressed like the swans have from the very bottom?

No, we are none of these yet as it takes time, not one season but many to find an identity and style of play. This what Hughton is trying to figure out.

Midfield is the next area to be developed and we move on from that and make gradual improvements as the years tick by and hopefully one day get into Europe and top 6.

People need to wake up and be realistic about who we are and where we are as a club and start supporting the team, not slating them every time they loose and calling for the managers head.

 

[Resurgam]

Talk of getting rid of a manager so soon in to the season is ridiculous, in my opinion.

Those of you that can, cast your minds back to when Fergie first took over at Man Utd. He certainly didn't set the world alight with his brand of football, or his results at first.
I am not comparing us to Man Utd, but we do need stability and a base to build on for the future.

 

[GozoCanary]

I started this thread and I did not mean it to be a witch hunt against CH. I sincerely meant it as a genuine question - at what point, if performances don't improve, do we decide he has failed? Personally I am nowhere near that point yet, even though I have serious doubts about his ability to motivate players. My feeling at the moment is that he can spot a good player for sure, but then somehow he sucks the life out of that player by sapping their confidence. Before certain people jump on me, I know that is pure supposition on my part and I have no real evidence for that at all because we cannot SEE a player's confidence. I hope I am wrong.

I guess I personally feel that by Christmas there must be a more positive buzz. Not necessarily a better league position, but at least the feeling that we believe in ourselves and are actively trying to win games.

 

[Superman wears Grant Holt pyjamas in bed]

sometimes changing a manager is the only solution but judging that moment is not rocket science and we are miles away from that point. you cannot heap pressure on a manager just because you don't get a 'buzz' or a few fans aren't enjoying the football, or sometimes the performances are poor, or you lose the odd game heavily/convincingly - there is so, so much more to it than that. you have to be very careful what you wish for in football. not one person has ever been able to give a name of a realistic successor who would be any better than hughton. he was appointed because he did two great jobs in the championship and had made a flying start in the premier league before being, felt universally, unfairly dismissed. who would we get from a different background? my favourite suggestion (on twitter) was roberto di matteo - a man who won the champions league in the most boring and negative manner ever seen. i'm not saying he wouldn't be a good appointment, he might, but talk about jumping out of the frying pan and into a boiling hot, erupting volcano! as i say - people should be careful what they wish for - you don't necessarily realise how good you've got it

 

[GozoCanary]

Supers, I agree with most of what you say, especially about the lack of possible replacements. I've tried not to get involved in the post-Spurs stuff about CH because I think we've all said everything there is to say and we just have to wait and see how it goes over the next few months.

 

[ThaiCanary]

sometimes changing a manager is the only solution but judging that moment is not rocket science and we are miles away from that point. you cannot heap pressure on a manager just because you don't get a 'buzz' or a few fans aren't enjoying the football, or sometimes the performances are poor, or you lose the odd game heavily/convincingly - there is so, so much more to it than that. you have to be very careful what you wish for in football. not one person has ever been able to give a name of a realistic successor who would be any better than hughton. he was appointed because he did two great jobs in the championship and had made a flying start in the premier league before being, felt universally, unfairly dismissed. who would we get from a different background? my favourite suggestion (on twitter) was roberto di matteo - a man who won the champions league in the most boring and negative manner ever seen. i'm not saying he wouldn't be a good appointment, he might, but talk about jumping out of the frying pan and into a boiling hot, erupting volcano! as i say - people should be careful what they wish for - you don't necessarily realise how good you've got it

Supers, just extracting two teeny-weeny bits, which is where the arguments lay....sometimes changing a manager is the only solution - When is that point? Bottom (or bottom 2/3) of the league going in to Christmas, after Christmas, end of January (when it maybe too late) end of the season ans see what happens - when? To each and every one of us, that is likely to be different and highly unlikely that agreement is going to be made among all concerned.

Not one person has ever been able to give a name of a realistic successor who would be any better than hughton - I think it is reasonable to say that whenever the point is reached when the board release CH (and basing this on poor results only) IF it happens - Whoever steps in, is unlikely to do worse as things will have to be pretty bad in the first place, unlike Chelsea etc who MUST make top 4 or you're sacked! They may not be any better but it would give hope (perhaps only for a short time, perhaps not).

Is relegation acceptable to a few, some or most people? (i.e. One step back to move forward again) For those that suggest it may not be the end of the world, how confident would you be of bouncing back quickly? We would have no right to come straight back up, or indeed in 2, 3, 4, 5 seasons or more, and this is where I get a little uncomfortable when I see NCFC playing away from home, as results on the road are so incredibly hard to come by at the best of times, and if the poor away performances spill over to the home games, as they appeared to in Jan, Feb and March, we could well be facing another relegation scrap with 1 or 2 games to go, and looking at our fixtures this is the last thing we need.

 

[KIO]

Supers, just extracting two teeny-weeny bits, which is where the arguments lay....sometimes changing a manager is the only solution - When is that point? Bottom (or bottom 2/3) of the league going in to Christmas, after Christmas, end of January (when it maybe too late) end of the season ans see what happens - when? To each and every one of us, that is likely to be different and highly unlikely that agreement is going to be made among all concerned.

Not one person has ever been able to give a name of a realistic successor who would be any better than hughton - I think it is reasonable to say that whenever the point is reached when the board release CH (and basing this on poor results only) IF it happens - Whoever steps in, is unlikely to do worse as things will have to be pretty bad in the first place, unlike Chelsea etc who MUST make top 4 or you're sacked! They may not be any better but it would give hope (perhaps only for a short time, perhaps not).

Is relegation acceptable to a few, some or most people? (i.e. One step back to move forward again) For those that suggest it may not be the end of the world, how confident would you be of bouncing back quickly? We would have no right to come straight back up, or indeed in 2, 3, 4, 5 seasons or more, and this is where I get a little uncomfortable when I see NCFC playing away from home, as results on the road are so incredibly hard to come by at the best of times, and if the poor away performances spill over to the home games, as they appeared to in Jan, Feb and March, we could well be facing another relegation scrap with 1 or 2 games to go, and looking at our fixtures this is the last thing we need.

Excellent post Thai

 

[Superman wears Grant Holt pyjamas in bed]

Supers, just extracting two teeny-weeny bits, which is where the arguments lay....sometimes changing a manager is the only solution - When is that point? Bottom (or bottom 2/3) of the league going in to Christmas, after Christmas, end of January (when it maybe too late) end of the season ans see what happens - when? To each and every one of us, that is likely to be different and highly unlikely that agreement is going to be made among all concerned.

Not one person has ever been able to give a name of a realistic successor who would be any better than hughton - I think it is reasonable to say that whenever the point is reached when the board release CH (and basing this on poor results only) IF it happens - Whoever steps in, is unlikely to do worse as things will have to be pretty bad in the first place, unlike Chelsea etc who MUST make top 4 or you're sacked! They may not be any better but it would give hope (perhaps only for a short time, perhaps not).

Is relegation acceptable to a few, some or most people? (i.e. One step back to move forward again) For those that suggest it may not be the end of the world, how confident would you be of bouncing back quickly? We would have no right to come straight back up, or indeed in 2, 3, 4, 5 seasons or more, and this is where I get a little uncomfortable when I see NCFC playing away from home, as results on the road are so incredibly hard to come by at the best of times, and if the poor away performances spill over to the home games, as they appeared to in Jan, Feb and March, we could well be facing another relegation scrap with 1 or 2 games to go, and looking at our fixtures this is the last thing we need.

of course that point will be different for every person but its pretty blatant that we are nowhere near a realistic point right now and that is my issue with it even being discussed - it is grossly unfair on the manager. many of the players have had no-shows in the opening weeks of the season - i assume we want them dismissed too? i honestly don't think he would be sacked if we are in the bottom 3 at christmas. he'd still have half a season left. are the board really of the knee-jerk variety that will panic? not from what i've seen - they'll back him in january and give him and more importantly the grand plan a better chance of working. if we are relegated then he might be sacked, though i certainly wouldn't guarantee it. he's proven to be excellent at championship level in his two jobs previous - if he was replaced we'd likely have to do so with another manager from a similar background so what would be the point? we'd require a decent championship manager to get us straight back up again! if we lost ten on the bounce then he'd be in trouble or if we lost 8-0 today he'd have enormous pressure on him but then any manager would - but it doesn't mean they should be sacked. there's a bigger picture but what really grates is the idea that a change of manager will right the conceived wrongs. in all likelihood it probably wouldn't because the personnel has been purchased by the current manager - he's half way through a job - do we really want to be starting all over again? the main disappointment described by those who would like to see change is the style of football rather than the results and the fact he's actually done what he was briefed to do is largely ignored - keep us up and try and build a squad able to maintain premier league football for years to come. of course there are aspects that will need to improve but given time they probably will, although again, there are no guarantees. we've got a very capable manager at the helm right now - he's not world class but neither is he a complete buffoon. for me, he perfectly fits the mould of a mid table premier league manager and that, at the end of the day, is where the club is trying to place itself at the moment. he might not be everyones cup of tea but that in itself is not a reason for heaping pressure on by giving ultimatums or a sacking. people need to be more realistic about where the club sits in the grand scheme of things and this has always been my problem with people moaning and chomping for change. it takes time to get to where we ALL want to be but some aren't showing the kind of patience required. these people will likely find themselves disappointed by their football team on a regular basis. they should chill and let the season grow and see what happens. mcnally won't be taking rash decisions.

 

[Home on the range canary]

I'm sure it has been mentioned, but an often neglected issue when considering a manager's ability is the extent to which they can grow and learn as they become more experienced. Personally, I think there are signs of that, but when a team is only improving slowly or treading water, then the manager often doesn't get the credit they deserve. Ferguson certainly grew over the course of his career (and not just the colour of his nose).

 

[ThaiCanary]

of course that point will be different for every person but its pretty blatant that we are nowhere near a realistic point right now and that is my issue with it even being discussed - it is grossly unfair on the manager. many of the players have had no-shows in the opening weeks of the season - i assume we want them dismissed too? i honestly don't think he would be sacked if we are in the bottom 3 at christmas. he'd still have half a season left. are the board really of the knee-jerk variety that will panic? not from what i've seen - they'll back him in january and give him and more importantly the grand plan a better chance of working. if we are relegated then he might be sacked, though i certainly wouldn't guarantee it. he's proven to be excellent at championship level in his two jobs previous - if he was replaced we'd likely have to do so with another manager from a similar background so what would be the point? we'd require a decent championship manager to get us straight back up again! if we lost ten on the bounce then he'd be in trouble or if we lost 8-0 today he'd have enormous pressure on him but then any manager would - but it doesn't mean they should be sacked. there's a bigger picture but what really grates is the idea that a change of manager will right the conceived wrongs. in all likelihood it probably wouldn't because the personnel has been purchased by the current manager - he's half way through a job - do we really want to be starting all over again? the main disappointment described by those who would like to see change is the style of football rather than the results and the fact he's actually done what he was briefed to do is largely ignored - keep us up and try and build a squad able to maintain premier league football for years to come. of course there are aspects that will need to improve but given time they probably will, although again, there are no guarantees. we've got a very capable manager at the helm right now - he's not world class but neither is he a complete buffoon. for me, he perfectly fits the mould of a mid table premier league manager and that, at the end of the day, is where the club is trying to place itself at the moment. he might not be everyones cup of tea but that in itself is not a reason for heaping pressure on by giving ultimatums or a sacking. people need to be more realistic about where the club sits in the grand scheme of things and this has always been my problem with people moaning and chomping for change. it takes time to get to where we ALL want to be but some aren't showing the kind of patience required. these people will likely find themselves disappointed by their football team on a regular basis. they should chill and let the season grow and see what happens. mcnally won't be taking rash decisions.

I wish you had made a few paragraphs there - my eyes hurt now

Not that I have any knowledge about what goes on inside any of the board members heads of course, but I do wonder how much emphasis they place on PL survival over the reign of an individual, or maybe they have a set of circumstances already thought about, when some kind of action is required to make the changes they believe are needed.

I do not envy any of these people, from the manager up. The PL, to us and similar clubs is somewhat of a millstone around our necks, as survival would appear to be all that matters now, and mid-table is something of an achievement. To an extent that is true because of all that lovely wonga floating around the N&P NCFC account. For as long as our home record remains pretty formidable, we should be okay and perhaps just need to accept that half our season (or a little more) is going to be pants, and learn to deal with it. Doesn't and will not stop the frustration though, hence I am not quick to slam anyone for the beliefs on this topic anymore

 

[General Melchett]

I'd sack him if we tail to score in our next 3 games! Seriously 25 teams came, they scored, CH NCFC side.....
Some sympathy, he can't get on there and knock the penalty in but so little quality or invention to make really good chances, just needs time! When does it run out though? We can't keep losing to our relegation rivals!

Bah!

 

[canarie-chippy]

I'd just give him long enough to clear his draw !
Clueless tactition, no idea how to change personal in games.
We play absolutely piss poor at spurs, by his own admission he's disappointed, so he starts with the same team. ???
Almander looks slow and clumsy, RVW, I feel for him watching cross after cross sail over his head.
Snoddy has had an poor start to the season and should never have finished the game today, and WHY did he take the pen ???? Wolf is a pen specialist !! Just another reason why Hughton is totally inept.
This team WILL be religated under his leadership, it's no good saying " give him five more games" that will be a quarter of the season gone and the new guy will need as much time as posible to mould this lot into team.
I fully expect to get shouted down by the " give him time" & "we're in transition" brigade but these are my views and I couldn't give a monkeys.
I love this club, have watched them for over 30yrs and I'm so annoyed at the way this man is dragging us down.

 

[GozoCanary]

On one level, today was just one of those days when the home team just can't break through a packed defence. It's not CH's fault that the penalty was missed, which would have changed the whole game.

On the other hand, it may be his fault that we seem to create approximately one chance in each away game and therefore we never get any points away from home, so that winning this kind of match becomes crucial. We cannot afford simply to sacrifice the away games on the theory that we are good at Carrow Road. This year we will not beat MU, Arsenal and Everton at home.

We need a win at Stoke, to get back the points we lost here. The way we play away from home, and the last two games at the Britannia, make me think this is highly unlikely. We're in trouble.