General Election 2019

[superhorns]

How many people are claimed to be members of Momentum, and how many are in the Labour Party ? You will find there is a ratio of about one to twenty. Try concentrating more on your own house - what numbers of new Tories are there over the last year or so and why have they joined the party - entryism is much more of a problem for them because of the far lower membership numbers.

The Tories have not suffered as the Labour Party has with infiltrators previously banned. The far left Momentum group has taken over control of the executive and are continuing to drive out of the party all of the so called moderates. Unfortunately this has made the party unattractive to the millions of traditional Labour voters.

On the other hand the Tories recent boost in membership has been with moderates, like myself, simply wishing to be able to choose the next party leader and therefore the PM. I chose Boris, as did most others. So far it looks an excellent choice.

 

[colognehornet]

The Tories have not suffered as the Labour Party has with infiltrators previously banned. The far left Momentum group has taken over control of the executive and are continuing to drive out of the party all of the so called moderates. Unfortunately this has made the party unattractive to the millions of traditional Labour voters.

On the other hand the Tories recent boost in membership has been with moderates, like myself, simply wishing to be able to choose the next party leader and therefore the PM. I chose Boris, as did most others. So far it looks an excellent choice.

You would describe yourself as a moderate ?

 

[superhorns]

You would describe yourself as a moderate ?

Moderately speaking, yes.

Jacob and I are really nice guys once you know us.

 

[oldfrenchhorn]

The Tories have not suffered as the Labour Party has with infiltrators previously banned. The far left Momentum group has taken over control of the executive and are continuing to drive out of the party all of the so called moderates. Unfortunately this has made the party unattractive to the millions of traditional Labour voters.

On the other hand the Tories recent boost in membership has been with moderates, like myself, simply wishing to be able to choose the next party leader and therefore the PM. I chose Boris, as did most others. So far it looks an excellent choice.

Can you tell us what evidence you have that millions of traditional Labour voters are unhappy with the party? If you want to see real militants within the party you need to go back to the days before Kinnock. Even then they were a relatively small number, although having influence in some parts of the country, similar to the hard right that has been trouble to the Tories for decades now. In many countries the two extremes would have broken away and formed their own parties, but they do have a chance of getting their ideas over and winning some seats. It is one of the problems with the UK voting system that makes it very difficult for a new party to break into the government.

 

[Hornet-Fez]

JRM is not, never has been, and never will be, a nice guy.
He doesn't even want people to live in habitable conditions... his voting record confirms this. Enough for me.

 

[superhorns]

Can you tell us what evidence you have that millions of traditional Labour voters are unhappy with the party? If you want to see real militants within the party you need to go back to the days before Kinnock. Even then they were a relatively small number, although having influence in some parts of the country, similar to the hard right that has been trouble to the Tories for decades now. In many countries the two extremes would have broken away and formed their own parties, but they do have a chance of getting their ideas over and winning some seats. It is one of the problems with the UK voting system that makes it very difficult for a new party to break into the government.

The evidence that traditional Labour voters have been turned off by the domination of the left is in the reduced support and voting percentages since the hapless Corbyn was unintentionally nominated for leadership. He was only elected because he was the only far left candidate in a field of moderates. The infiltration of Momentum is much worse than the Derek Hatton days of Militant Tendency as it has gained control of the executive. Under normal circumstances Labour would have been well ahead in the polls and indeed would have won the past two elections with its traditional broad support.

There is no equivalent in the Conservatives. The party has successfully weeded out some wishy washy Liberals within its ranks who unfortunately took advantage of the lack of a majority to make a name for themselves in the short term. The Tories now have a clear direction to respect the will of the people and to govern for all. Labour has made itself unelectable and the Lib Dems have only one policy, the Tories present large lead in the polls is totally unsurprising.

 

[yorkshirehornet]

Can we really stop this low level mud slinging starting up again. I think most of us are above that.


Let's stick with issues and facts please.
One thing I like about Corbyn and Farage is that they talk facts. I can make a clear choice and make up my mind..

 

[superhorns]

Can we really stop this low level mud slinging starting up again. I think most of us are above that.


Let's stick with issues and facts please.
One thing I like about Corbyn and Farage is that they talk facts. I can make a clear choice and make up my mind..

These are facts which you clearly find uncomfortable.

 

[colognehornet]

The evidence that traditional Labour voters have been turned off by the domination of the left is in the reduced support and voting percentages since the hapless Corbyn was unintentionally nominated for leadership. He was only elected because he was the only far left candidate in a field of moderates. The infiltration of Momentum is much worse than the Derek Hatton days of Militant Tendency as it has gained control of the executive. Under normal circumstances Labour would have been well ahead in the polls and indeed would have won the past two elections with its traditional broad support.

There is no equivalent in the Conservatives. The party has successfully weeded out some wishy washy Liberals within its ranks who unfortunately took advantage of the lack of a majority to make a name for themselves in the short term. The Tories now have a clear direction to respect the will of the people and to govern for all. Labour has made itself unelectable and the Lib Dems have only one policy, the Tories present large lead in the polls is totally unsurprising.

I think you need to identify exactly what the traditional Labour voter is SH. The policies being presented by the Labour Party of today are not Marxist ones but rather Keynesian mixed economy ones - similar to what was the norm 40-50 years ago. They appear to be left wing because the centre of British politics has moved to the right - towards a blind acceptance of neo liberal, free market, values. Nationalization was once the norm in the UK. it is not a hard left wing exception. The Labour Party has a slight difference amongst it's supporters in that the traditional working class supporter in the north understands the need to nationalize, but is not remotely interested in themes like legalization of cannabis, gay rights, or , dare I say it multi culturalism. The young supporter in Islington accepts the latter points but knows nothing about the socialism of the past. The older socialist from Oldham and the younger one from Stoke Newington inhabit different planets. You say that the Tories have weeded out some wishy washy liberals - you mean real one nation Tories such as Kenneth Clarke ? 'Weeding out' is another word for purging ie. the moderates are being forced out leaving a hard right hard Brexit core. Real Tories were people like Edward Heath, Michael Heseltine and Kenneth Clarke - what gives you the right to say who 'real Conservatives' are ?

 

[superhorns]

I think you need to identify exactly what the traditional Labour voter is SH. The policies being presented by the Labour Party of today are not Marxist ones but rather Keynesian mixed economy ones - similar to what was the norm 40-50 years ago. They appear to be left wing because the centre of British politics has moved to the right - towards a blind acceptance of neo liberal, free market, values. Nationalization was once the norm in the UK. it is not a hard left wing exception. The Labour Party has a slight difference amongst it's supporters in that the traditional working class supporter in the north understands the need to nationalize, but is not remotely interested in themes like legalization of cannabis, gay rights, or , dare I say it multi culturalism. The young supporter in Islington accepts the latter points but knows nothing about the socialism of the past. The older socialist from Oldham and the younger one from Stoke Newington inhabit different planets. You say that the Tories have weeded out some wishy washy liberals - you mean real one nation Tories such as Kenneth Clarke ? 'Weeding out' is another word for purging ie. the moderates are being forced out leaving a hard right hard Brexit core. Real Tories were people like Edward Heath, Michael Heseltine and Kenneth Clarke - what gives you the right to say who 'real Conservatives' are ?

The last time the Labour Party promoted such left wing ideas was the days of Michael Foot. We all know his brand of socialism did not resonate with the public. Corbyn has managed to drag his personal popularity and that of the Labour Party down to levels much worse than that windbag in a duffle coat.

 

[superhorns]

The last time the Labour Party promoted such left wing ideas was the days of Michael Foot. We all know his brand of socialism did not resonate with the public. Corbyn has managed to drag his personal popularity and that of the Labour Party down to levels much worse than that windbag in a duffle coat.

or was it a donkey jacket? scruffy bleeder either way.

 

[colognehornet]

The last time the Labour Party promoted such left wing ideas was the days of Michael Foot. We all know his brand of socialism did not resonate with the public. Corbyn has managed to drag his personal popularity and that of the Labour Party down to levels much worse than that windbag in a duffle coat.

You have often referred to the 'traditional Labour' voter SH. Would you like to describe him ? The reason why Michael Foot did so badly at the polls was that there was a split in the party - and the electorate instinctively turns away from parties that split just before elections. There has always been a potential problem in the old clause 4 of the party (won't bother reciting it here because you know it already) - some joined because of it, and some despite it. There has always been a broad span of opinion in the party - this is obvious - coming together (initially) from trade union/radical/Methodist roots. The party were members of the third international and organized support for the Bolsheviks in their civil war against the White Russians. So the party comes from far left wing roots (but also religious roots) which have mellowed over time. This is all well known - so just answer - what is the traditional Labour supporter ?

 

[superhorns]

You have often referred to the 'traditional Labour' voter SH. Would you like to describe him ? The reason why Michael Foot did so badly at the polls was that there was a split in the party - and the electorate instinctively turns away from parties that split just before elections. There has always been a potential problem in the old clause 4 of the party (won't bother reciting it here because you know it already) - some joined because of it, and some despite it. There has always been a broad span of opinion in the party - this is obvious - coming together (initially) from trade union/radical/Methodist roots. The party were members of the third international and organized support for the Bolsheviks in their civil war against the White Russians. So the party comes from far left wing roots (but also religious roots) which have mellowed over time. This is all well known - so just answer - what is the traditional Labour supporter ?

Those millions that voted for Blair in Labours most successful period ever in terms of power and control.

 

[superhorns]

Those millions that voted for Blair in Labours most successful period ever in terms of power and control.

If the electorate shun parties that are split Labour might as well give up now.

 

[colognehornet]

Those millions that voted for Blair in Labours most successful period ever in terms of power and control.

No SH. The 80s destroyed Labour's traditional supporter. Through having claimed a majority based on only 42% of the vote Thatchers government was able to ravage vast sectors of the industrial working class of the north - these were the traditional base of Labour's support. Through the neo liberal deluge which followed - well, Blair's Labour went with this and became a neo liberal free market party which was able to win the middle classes of marginals in the South - they geared their politics towards only these marginals. The traditional labour voter went with this for a while, because there was no other natural home for them. In the past the poorest 30% of our society were industrial workers in manufacturing - they were organized, trade union members, and were politically active. That is no longer the case - the poorest sectors of our society did not leave Labour - Labour left them. Corbyn is trying to reconnect.

 

[superhorns]

No SH. The 80s destroyed Labour's traditional supporter. Through having claimed a majority based on only 42% of the vote Thatchers government was able to ravage vast sectors of the industrial working class of the north - these were the traditional base of Labour's support. Through the neo liberal deluge which followed - well, Blair's Labour went with this and became a neo liberal free market party which was able to win the middle classes of marginals in the South - they geared their politics towards only these marginals. The traditional labour voter went with this for a while, because there was no other natural home for them. In the past the poorest 30% of our society were industrial workers in manufacturing - they were organized, trade union members, and were politically active. That is no longer the case - the poorest sectors of our society did not leave Labour - Labour left them. Corbyn is trying to reconnect.

The de-industrialisation began well before Thatcher. The industrial wrecking tactics of Red Robbo in the car industry and Scargill in mining did more damage to the working class than the wrongly much maligned Mrs Thatcher.

Corbyn has alienated much of the Northern working class base with his u-turn on Brexit. They are also uneasy with his support for terrorist organisations, his anti monarchy stance and willingness to excuse Russia over the Salisbury attacks.
The working class also became more sophisticated as the union membership plummeted with many becoming self employed and aspirational. The UK public are no longer interested in returning to 60's class war battles, Corbyn's target base is becoming smaller all the time.

 

[colognehornet]

The de-industrialisation began well before Thatcher. The industrial wrecking tactics of Red Robbo in the car industry and Scargill in mining did more damage to the working class than the wrongly much maligned Mrs Thatcher.

Corbyn has alienated much of the Northern working class base with his u-turn on Brexit. They are also uneasy with his support for terrorist organisations, his anti monarchy stance and willingness to excuse Russia over the Salisbury attacks.
The working class also became more sophisticated as the union membership plummeted with many becoming self employed and aspirational. The UK public are no longer interested in returning to 60's class war battles, Corbyn's target base is becoming smaller all the time.

In moving to the middle ground of politics in the Blairite era the Labour Party left a void behind them which became a breeding ground for radical politics of the BNP and EDL type which Ukip effectively utilised. The new post industrial poor have no natural home in politics any more.

 

[colognehornet]

The de-industrialisation began well before Thatcher. The industrial wrecking tactics of Red Robbo in the car industry and Scargill in mining did more damage to the working class than the wrongly much maligned Mrs Thatcher.

Corbyn has alienated much of the Northern working class base with his u-turn on Brexit. They are also uneasy with his support for terrorist organisations, his anti monarchy stance and willingness to excuse Russia over the Salisbury attacks.
The working class also became more sophisticated as the union membership plummeted with many becoming self employed and aspirational. The UK public are no longer interested in returning to 60's class war battles, Corbyn's target base is becoming smaller all the time.

With reference to Russia he said 'wait and see', not being able to commit fully without conclusive evidence - the conclusive evidence is still not there. His anti monarchy stance is a private thing which bears no relevence to his day to day politics - 'not today's battle' as he puts it. Having been in dialogue with some people who you call terrorists does not make him a friend to them. As for the U turn on Brexit - where is the U turn ? He was always more or less neutral on this question.

 

[superhorns]

In moving to the middle ground of politics in the Blairite era the Labour Party left a void behind them which became a breeding ground for radical politics of the BNP and EDL type which Ukip effectively utilised. The new post industrial poor have no natural home in politics any more.

I'm quite happy for Labour to return to the Michael Foot cul de sac of politics. It keeps the Tories firmly in the middle ground and in power. Hopefully Labour will keep plugging the lefty messages, they will be out of power for another 10 years.

It is impossible to imagine how Labour could have messed up their chances any more than they have.

 

[superhorns]

With reference to Russia he said 'wait and see', not being able to commit fully without conclusive evidence - the conclusive evidence is still not there. His anti monarchy stance is a private thing which bears no relevence to his day to day politics - 'not today's battle' as he puts it. Having been in dialogue with some people who you call terrorists does not make him a friend to them. As for the U turn on Brexit - where is the U turn ? He was always more or less neutral on this question.

Why do you think Corbyn is seen by the public as useless and more unpopular than Foot even?

Jeremy Corbyn 'most unpopular opposition leader of past 45 ...https://www.politicshome.com › labour-party › jeremy-corbyn › news › je...