General Election 2019

[colognehornet]

Well here we are again. In 6 weeks there is to be another General Election. At the moment things look good for the Tories but there are several question marks over this election. From the polls it appears that there are some Labour voters who have been borrowed by the Tories in order to deliver Brexit - but will Joe Bloggs from Sunderland really put the most right wing Tory government ever in power for 5 years just to deliver Brexit ? How important will tactical voting be ? There has been agreement between the Greens and the Lib Dems on this but there is, officially, nothing between Labour and the Lib Dems - but what happens unofficially is unknown. Predictably the Tories will try to turn it into a purely Brexit election, with Labour trying to broaden the debate. The Tories may find that the mantra 'Let's get it done' is not enough to fill the pages of a manifesto - but do people actually read manifestoes ? All is not lost for Labour - we know that Corbyn comes over much better in election campaigns, and the advantage of them is that Labour has equal coverage time on TV. the only time that Labour really has a mouthpiece directly to the public.

I hope that we can debate in a civilized manner here - and that after the election we are all still in a frame of mind to wish happy Christmas all round, whatever the result may be.

 

[Toby]

I've just finished digging a beautiful ditch. Hope it comes in handy

 

[superhorns]

I've just finished digging a beautiful ditch. Hope it comes in handy

It could be handy for Corbyn when he leads the Labour Party to its fourth successive defeat.

 

[superhorns]

Well here we are again. In 6 weeks there is to be another General Election. At the moment things look good for the Tories but there are several question marks over this election. From the polls it appears that there are some Labour voters who have been borrowed by the Tories in order to deliver Brexit - but will Joe Bloggs from Sunderland really put the most right wing Tory government ever in power for 5 years just to deliver Brexit ? How important will tactical voting be ? There has been agreement between the Greens and the Lib Dems on this but there is, officially, nothing between Labour and the Lib Dems - but what happens unofficially is unknown. Predictably the Tories will try to turn it into a purely Brexit election, with Labour trying to broaden the debate. The Tories may find that the mantra 'Let's get it done' is not enough to fill the pages of a manifesto - but do people actually read manifestoes ? All is not lost for Labour - we know that Corbyn comes over much better in election campaigns, and the advantage of them is that Labour has equal coverage time on TV. the only time that Labour really has a mouthpiece directly to the public.

I hope that we can debate in a civilized manner here - and that after the election we are all still in a frame of mind to wish happy Christmas all round, whatever the result may be.

The problem for Labour is that Corbyn's dithering has lost him hordes of his young Momentum conscripts. Any decent opposition leader and/or party would, and should, be 20 points ahead by now.

The Tories have also stolen a march on Labour's traditional safe patch, the NHS. The large cash increases for the NHS, Police forces and schools will nullify much of Labour's uncosted spending commitments. Boris is now trusted more on the NHS than Corbyn, not a good position for Labour. Labour are in such a mess that the Lib Dems may become the official opposition. They will need more than a minibus for their annual conference, maybe Labour will buy it from them?

I agree with the hope for a more positive and friendly tone of debate, Fez's news should remind us that none of this really matters. We can have some banter without any of the nasty stuff.

 

[colognehornet]

The problem for Labour is that Corbyn's dithering has lost him hordes of his young Momentum conscripts. Any decent opposition leader and/or party would, and should, be 20 points ahead by now.

The Tories have also stolen a march on Labour's traditional safe patch, the NHS. The large cash increases for the NHS, Police forces and schools will nullify much of Labour's uncosted spending commitments. Boris is now trusted more on the NHS than Corbyn, not a good position for Labour. Labour are in such a mess that the Lib Dems may become the official opposition. They will need more than a minibus for their annual conference, maybe Labour will buy it from them?

I agree with the hope for a more positive and friendly tone of debate, Fez's news should remind us that none of this really matters. We can have some banter without any of the nasty stuff.

Why do you presume that Labour spending commitments are uncosted whereas the same criteria doesn't apply to Tory bribes SH ? Nobody takes last minute offers of money seriously after so many years of austerity - not when they are only made just before an election. The Tories will be judged by their entire period in office, not by last minute presents. I agree to an extent about Corbyn's dithering on Brexit - he always just wished the theme had never arisen in the first place and, in truth, could probably have lived with Brexit if he thought the Tories would get the blame for it. The problem was that the Brexit movement managed to bring together people from across the political spectrum - with contrary promises which could never keep all of them happy. This included thousands of voters in Labour's heartland who needed a scapegoat (the EU) and were deluded into aiding a right wing power grab. Corbyn has tried to make Labour a potential home for both remainers and leavers but this was a dangerous course in a World which has become so polarized. I am worried at the numbers of MPs who are leaving Westminster after the next election - all of them moderates, and fear that both main parties will become even more polarized than at present. The one thing I do agree with you on is that the Lib Dems are probably heading for their best result ever.

 

[superhorns]

Why do you presume that Labour spending commitments are uncosted whereas the same criteria doesn't apply to Tory bribes SH ? Nobody takes last minute offers of money seriously after so many years of austerity - not when they are only made just before an election. The Tories will be judged by their entire period in office, not by last minute presents. I agree to an extent about Corbyn's dithering on Brexit - he always just wished the theme had never arisen in the first place and, in truth, could probably have lived with Brexit if he thought the Tories would get the blame for it. The problem was that the Brexit movement managed to bring together people from across the political spectrum - with contrary promises which could never keep all of them happy. This included thousands of voters in Labour's heartland who needed a scapegoat (the EU) and were deluded into aiding a right wing power grab. Corbyn has tried to make Labour a potential home for both remainers and leavers but this was a dangerous course in a World which has become so polarized. I am worried at the numbers of MPs who are leaving Westminster after the next election - all of them moderates, and fear that both main parties will become even more polarized than at present. The one thing I do agree with you on is that the Lib Dems are probably heading for their best result ever.

The Tory Party's spending plans are also mostly at odds with its traditional careful and controlled budgets, but are justified if it keeps the far left from gaining any power. I suspect Corbyn's unpopularity will remain much worse than Michael Foot's and will end up will the same electoral rejection form the public. Apart from not wanting extreme politics many traditional Labour voters will not forgive the party for trying to block Brexit in parliament.

The Tories are being judge by their record which is why they have such a commanding lead in the polls.

 

[colognehornet]

The Tory Party's spending plans are also mostly at odds with its traditional careful and controlled budgets, but are justified if it keeps the far left from gaining any power. I suspect Corbyn's unpopularity will remain much worse than Michael Foot's and will end up will the same electoral rejection form the public. Apart from not wanting extreme politics many traditional Labour voters will not forgive the party for trying to block Brexit in parliament.

The Tories are being judge by their record which is why they have such a commanding lead in the polls.

Well you see Jeremy does not have an easy life ! Apparently Joe Bloggs in Oldham or Sunderland cannot forgive him for appearing to delay Brexit, and the youngsters of Momentum cannot forgive him for not immediately supporting a second referendum ! This is what you get for staying in the middle at a time when the whole World is moving to extremes. He tries to be the mediator between the two - and he is, truly, the only one who is interested in mediation at this time - is that a bad thing ? Besides which Brexit could have been dried and dusted if Johnson and the ERG had supported May's deal. When. finally, the breakthrough was made and Parliament actually agreed to Johnson's deal he ran away from it and forced an election - so just who has delayed Brexit ? As for what you call 'extreme politics' - is there anything more extreme than the hard Brexiteers who are prepared to drive a wedge through Britain to satisfy their ideology ?

 

[oldfrenchhorn]

Although I am alright with this thread, I will set down a couple of rules to how I will moderate it. Any personal abuse and I will remove the post as soon as I see it. Any posts that simply sloganize if there is such a word will also get removed. I am happy with reasoned debate, but I expect to see the reasoning behind the post. If there is no reason given for a view it is also likely to get removed. We are all grown up and should behave as such, and I don't wish to stop debate, but let's show that we have used our reasoning before posting things that are unworthy of this board.

 

[colognehornet]

Although I am alright with this thread, I will set down a couple of rules to how I will moderate it. Any personal abuse and I will remove the post as soon as I see it. Any posts that simply sloganize if there is such a word will also get removed. I am happy with reasoned debate, but I expect to see the reasoning behind the post. If there is no reason given for a view it is also likely to get removed. We are all grown up and should behave as such, and I don't wish to stop debate, but let's show that we have used our reasoning before posting things that are unworthy of this board.

There is actually a word to sloganize Frenchie - and the person who does it is a sloganeer ! I did hesitate a while before opening this thread because of what happened in the past but if politics are going to move onto other, non related, threads then maybe it's better to keep it all in one place.

 

[superhorns]

Although I am alright with this thread, I will set down a couple of rules to how I will moderate it. Any personal abuse and I will remove the post as soon as I see it. Any posts that simply sloganize if there is such a word will also get removed. I am happy with reasoned debate, but I expect to see the reasoning behind the post. If there is no reason given for a view it is also likely to get removed. We are all grown up and should behave as such, and I don't wish to stop debate, but let's show that we have used our reasoning before posting things that are unworthy of this board.

Hopefully you will be more evenhanded than previously, the clique should be a thing of the past.

 

[oldfrenchhorn]

In 1973 Purchase Tax was replaced by VAT and the Chancellor of the day Tony Barber ( C) set the rate at 10%.
In 1974 the then Chancellor Dennis Healey (L) reduced it to 8%.
In 1979 Geoffrey Howe (C) almost doubled it taking it up to 15%
In 1991 Norman Lamont (C) raised it again to 17.5%
In 1994 Norman Lamont (C) changed zero Vat on fuel and power to 8%
In 1997 Gordon Brown (L) reduced the Vat on fuel and power to 5%
In 2010 George Osborne (C) raised standard Vat from 17.5% to 20%

VAT is a tax that disproportionally has an effect on the poorer sections of the country, and we can see from the above that all the increases have come under Tory governments. It therefore has to be questioned has the Tory party been concerned about the poorer people in the country since 1973?

 

[oldfrenchhorn]

Hopefully you will be more evenhanded than previously, the clique should be a thing of the past.

I have stated what I will judge posts by, and will apply them in an evenhanded way as ever.

 

[superhorns]

Well you see Jeremy does not have an easy life ! Apparently Joe Bloggs in Oldham or Sunderland cannot forgive him for appearing to delay Brexit, and the youngsters of Momentum cannot forgive him for not immediately supporting a second referendum ! This is what you get for staying in the middle at a time when the whole World is moving to extremes. He tries to be the mediator between the two - and he is, truly, the only one who is interested in mediation at this time - is that a bad thing ? Besides which Brexit could have been dried and dusted if Johnson and the ERG had supported May's deal. When. finally, the breakthrough was made and Parliament actually agreed to Johnson's deal he ran away from it and forced an election - so just who has delayed Brexit ? As for what you call 'extreme politics' - is there anything more extreme than the hard Brexiteers who are prepared to drive a wedge through Britain to satisfy their ideology ?

Johnson pulled the bill because the wreckers would have amended it beyond recognition. It was better to have an election in the hope that new MPs would have more respect for the referendum result. There is no denying the indications of Labour's manifesto positions itself far far to the left of what has been considered normal socialist policies. I very much doubt this approach, which has horrified most of the moderate parliamentary party, will find favour in the country. So far it does not look like it.

 

[superhorns]

I have stated what I will judge posts by, and will apply them in an evenhanded way as ever.

 

[superhorns]

In 1973 Purchase Tax was replaced by VAT and the Chancellor of the day Tony Barber ( C) set the rate at 10%.
In 1974 the then Chancellor Dennis Healey (L) reduced it to 8%.
In 1979 Geoffrey Howe (C) almost doubled it taking it up to 15%
In 1991 Norman Lamont (C) raised it again to 17.5%
In 1994 Norman Lamont (C) changed zero Vat on fuel and power to 8%
In 1997 Gordon Brown (L) reduced the Vat on fuel and power to 5%
In 2010 George Osborne (C) raised standard Vat from 17.5% to 20%

VAT is a tax that disproportionally has an effect on the poorer sections of the country, and we can see from the above that all the increases have come under Tory governments. It therefore has to be questioned has the Tory party been concerned about the poorer people in the country since 1973?

The UK VAT rate is amongst the lowest in the EU. Taxes are also amongst the lowest. Employment rates are amongst the highest in the EU.

The majority of EU countries by your reckoning have little concern for the poor.

 

[oldfrenchhorn]

The UK VAT rate is amongst the lowest in the EU. Taxes are also amongst the lowest. Employment rates are amongst the highest in the EU.

The majority of EU countries by your reckoning have little concern for the poor.

We are talking about a General Election which is only about the government of the UK, not about how others choose to run their economies. The people in those countries will have the chance to change the way they are governed if they so wish. The point is that every increase in VAT has come about under Tory governments, and this pushes up the cost of living for those who will feel it the most.

 

[superhorns]

We are talking about a General Election which is only about the government of the UK, not about how others choose to run their economies. The people in those countries will have the chance to change the way they are governed if they so wish. The point is that every increase in VAT has come about under Tory governments, and this pushes up the cost of living for those who will feel it the most.

The Tory government has one of the lowest rate of VAT in Europe so by your standard has the most regard for the poor. If you want to use statistics you must accept those that disprove your strange theory.

 

[oldfrenchhorn]

The Tory government has one of the lowest rate of VAT in Europe so by your standard has the most regard for the poor. If you want to use statistics you must accept those that disprove your strange theory.

This is not about Europe SH. This is about the Tories raising VAT, not Labour. Are you trying to say that these statistics are wrong?

 

[superhorns]

This is not about Europe SH. This is about the Tories raising VAT, not Labour. Are you trying to say that these statistics are wrong?

It was you who connect VAT rates with kindness to the poor. In that case it makes the Tory controlled UK government one of the kindest in Europe. It also provides the opportunity where jobs are created easily and unemployment is at a very low rate compared to other European countries. I can see why the Tories are way ahead in the polls, obviously the British public do to.

Nothing is more unkind than to leave citizens without hope and without jobs as in many other EU countries.

 

[oldfrenchhorn]

It was you who connect VAT rates with kindness to the poor. In that case it makes the Tory controlled UK government one of the kindest in Europe. It also provides the opportunity where jobs are created easily and unemployment is at a very low rate compared to other European countries. I can see why the Tories are way ahead in the polls, obviously the British public do to.

Nothing is more unkind than to leave citizens without hope and without jobs as in many other EU countries.

I think that your reply accepts that the figures I quoted are correct.