Finances chat

[Sandy Camel]

Fair enough, I have no problem with you disagreeing and saying you don't want to know more at all. I think to add context, the reason I was highlighting the risk of Donald owing us the money was that we weren't spending money and didn't seem to have a plan on or off the pitch. At least one of those now seems better which is why I'm way more positive about the future with Donald from a financial point of view.

Now all he has to do is invest the money wisely.

Bang on. The thing is, we got badly burned being in the richest league in the world because this didn't happen, money was pissed away. Now we've already been somewhat scorched the one and only time we went out and spent big money at this level on Grigg.

Investment to me is not having millions to spend on player transfers and wages. It's about getting a club scouting and analytics department up and running, trying to get some of the best youth coaches around in for the academy, getting the best staff for the medical and fitness side of things and providing an up to date working environment for all that to happen in. If the entirety of that American investment is spent on this I would have no complaints, as long as we get some snazzy fast pint dispensers in the place.

 

[Sandy Camel]

There seems to be lots of confusion about the finances again. This is what I think has happened since the SD takeover and how it affects the Madrox accounts

1. ES wrote off his soft debt of £100m (i.e. he'd pumped that much into the club and said forget about repaying me).
2. ES paid £55m cash to SBC reducing their loan from £80m to £25m.
3. Madrox bought SAFC for £40m payable with £15m cash upfront to ES and £25m gradually to SBC. So Madrox owe ES and SBC.
4. Instead of paying off SBC gradually and costing SAFC interest, SD used the parachute money to pay off SBC, which meant Madrox owed SAFC £25m, to be repaid gradually.
   
5. £15m was reduced to £5m up front then £10m later because we didn't get £10m cash for N'Dong.
6. SD used his own money to pay ES £5m which meant Madrox owed SD £5m.
   
7. The remaining £10m was reduced to £7m because ES didn't declare or know about all the SAFC crap that SD/CM/RH discovered and dealt with (hence RH getting praise).
8. Because SD had to pump so much money into SAFC early on, he used the Close loan to pay off ES with the final £7m, which meant Madrox now owed SAFC £32m. Close were repaid with more parachute payments a few months later.
   
9. That would suggest SD's used a further £15m of his own money to pay for all sorts of stuff in SAFC e.g. Kone, Khazri, Grigg, Ticketmaster, Losses etc etc, which means Madrox now owe SD £20m, and Madrox now owe SAFC £17m (being repaid gradually).
10. That total £37m payable by Madrox balances with its £37m asset of SAFC.
11. Now FPP have loaned money to Madrox, the amounts payable by Madrox now include FPP so that has gone up to £46m, and Madrox's asset of SAFC has gone up to £46m to balance the accounts.
12. To keep it simple(?!) I left out CM and JS who also put a chunk of money in in 2018, and another chunk recently which will mean the £17m Madrox owes SAFC is actually much less than that, I'd guess about £12m and the other £5m is owed to CM/JS.

I should be able to give more than one like for this post.

 

[HeatonMackem]

So who should pay back the Close bros loan? If we didn't spend £5.4m of it, we have still spent £6.6m and as you say, that was paid back from the club's parachute payments, so effectively, that needs to be added to Madrox's debt to the club, does it not?

No. The £5.4m was SAFC's to spend. SAFC only paid £7m on behalf of Madrox so only that much gets added onto their loan. Or to put it another way, the unused £5.4m was used to pay back Close, and SAFC kept £5.4 of the future parachute money to spend itself.

I just don't know how to get on board with this stuff adding up to £15m mate.

None of us know what all the ins and outs were. All we can go by for now is that SD has said he has spent a total of £20m so far on all things SAFC.

How do you read the accounts in 2018? Specifically the £9.6m owed to a group entity (presumably Donald by your working out) and the £27m owed to someone else? It's just that it's hard to understand because we know that at that point, SAFC also acquired a debt to it of £9.6m in the same period.

£9.6m will be the amount owed to SAFC because it is a group undertaking i.e. Madrox owns SAFC so it is in the same group of companies. £27m will be the total owed to SBC/SD/CM/JS. All as at 31st July 2018, not long after SD took over.

 

[Sunderpitt]

Thank god I retired as an accountant a few years ago, otherwise I might find all of this interesting

 

[Kittenmittons]

No. The £5.4m was SAFC's to spend. SAFC only paid £7m on behalf of Madrox so only that much gets added onto their loan. Or to put it another way, the unused £5.4m was used to pay back Close, and SAFC kept £5.4 of the future parachute money to spend itself.

None of us know what all the ins and outs were. All we can go by for now is that SD has said he has spent a total of £20m so far on all things SAFC.

£9.6m will be the amount owed to SAFC because it is a group undertaking i.e. Madrox owns SAFC so it is in the same group of companies. £27m will be the total owed to SBC/SD/CM/JS. All as at 31st July 2018, not long after SD took over.

The first bit is what I agree with, that's what I've been saying for months, that the liability (ie: the balance of the loan actually paid out on behalf of Madrox for SD's shares) needed to be added to their debt to us yeah.

re: the 18-19 accounts:

Madrox paid someone £9.6m with that cash. It was (imo) likely SBC, as we know the Short debt wasn't cleared until the Close loan in April. The other options are... Donald? Surely he wouldn't have paid £5m and then had it paid back to him by the club in parachute payments so quickly, so the only realistic option is SBC?

But that means that Donald's initial £5m likely wasn't a loan to Madrox, as it would have come through before the end of the accounting period and also been classed as a debt to a group company on those accounts, is that right?

 

[OldNewtown]

It's a bit like Grigg, people talk about him putting that money in, but again, we sold Maja in January, so that would have offset almost entirely if the (dodgy) transfer data is anywhere near accurate.

I thought it was accepted that the Maja transfer cancelled monies that we owed for, was it, Khazri?
We didn't actually receive any money on his sale.

 

[Kittenmittons]

I thought it was accepted that the Maja transfer cancelled monies that we owed for, was it, Khazri?
We didn't actually receive any money on his sale.

Not sure, this is why as I was saying it is a minefield trying to work out that part of it or assuming much. I'm inclined to believe Donald did put some money in for Grigg btw.

 

[Arlyman]

Hi - I know there's already lots of summaries on this already - but let me know if my understanding below is correct/makes sense at a high level -

SD said Madrox paid 40M to short (15m for shares, plus picking up 25M of his debt)

SD said on he has put in about 20M total so far.

Short's 40M has been completely paid off now. I read/heard that some of the parachute payments etc were used for the other 20M needed to do that.

If the above is true then Madrox 'in debt' to the club ~20M. (Not counting any JS and CM inputs)

As its an 'internal debt' between Sunderland Ltd and the Madrox holding company, there's also no legal requirement to pay it back (is that right?), but there are stated good intentions to do so as needed.

However Madrox has now borrowed ~9.3M ($12M) from FPP which does have to paid back, or else SD loses his 20M invested to date and FPP takes control.

This money has been put into the club, so the amount 'owed' to the club by Madrox has been reduced by ~9.3M.

Very hard to write this out simply. I know I missed a ton out there, but is it something like that in the big picture?

 

[HeatonMackem]

Madrox paid someone £9.6m with that cash. It was (imo) likely SBC, as we know the Short debt wasn't cleared until the Close loan in April. The other options are... Donald? Surely he wouldn't have paid £5m and then had it paid back to him by the club in parachute payments so quickly, so the only realistic option is SBC?

But that means that Donald's initial £5m likely wasn't a loan to Madrox, as it would have come through before the end of the accounting period and also been classed as a debt to a group company on those accounts, is that right?

I missed off ES from the list included in the 27m. Easy to miss one.

You do know double entry bookkeeping, don't you?! You seem to be quite confused by it. Madrox didn't have a bank account so everything paid on its behalf has a double effect on either assets or liabilities. So SD/CM paid £5m directly to ES. In the Madrox accounts £5m that was owed to ES is now owed to SD/CM (reduces one liability and increases another).

Then by 31st July they must have used £9.6m of SAFC's parachute payments to pay some of the SBC debt. That moves £9.6m from amounts owed to SBC to amounts owed to SAFC. Of the other £27m, that leaves about £15m owed to SBC, £7m owed to ES, and £5m owed to SD/CM.

 

[HeatonMackem]

Hi - I know there's already lots of summaries on this already - but let me know if my understanding below is correct/makes sense at a high level -

SD said Madrox paid 40M to short (15m for shares, plus picking up 25M of his debt)

SD said on he has put in about 20M total so far.

Short's 40M has been completely paid off now. I read/heard that some of the parachute payments etc were used for the other 20M needed to do that.

If the above is true then Madrox 'in debt' to the club ~20M. (Not counting any JS and CM inputs)

As its an 'internal debt' between Sunderland Ltd and the Madrox holding company, there's also no legal requirement to pay it back (is that right?), but there are stated good intentions to do so as needed.

However Madrox has now borrowed ~9.3M ($12M) from FPP which does have to paid back, or else SD loses his 20M invested to date and FPP takes control.

This money has been put into the club, so the amount 'owed' to the club by Madrox has been reduced by ~9.3M.

Very hard to write this out simply. I know I missed a ton out there, but is it something like that in the big picture?

No, it doesn't reduce the amount Madrox owe SAFC because Madrox owed SAFC a extra £9m for the new shares issued by SAFC to Madrox.

 

[Arlyman]

No, it doesn't reduce the amount Madrox owe SAFC because Madrox owed SAFC a extra £9m for the new shares issued by SAFC to Madrox.

Oh ok, so Madrox effectively bought 9.3M worth of new SAFC shares, money which the club can now use as FY20 income, but continues to owe SAFC the same amount as before?

 

[Sin Semilla]

the jist of it is this - I have no problem with anyone, I can have an adult conversation and do with lots of people, but not with a couple of posters here who have made it their mission to be dickheads. No matter how reasonable I am, no matter how much I act above their insults, they just keep coming back and have to be warned by the mods about it.

No from the start you've been insufferable.

Then after a month on the takeover thread people had enough and someone made a thread dedicated just for you and your inquest.

It got deleted and then after a week it was decided by the users and mods this is the best solution. So reinstated, now here we are.

 

[Kittenmittons]

So if this article is true, it would represent potentially one of the worse outcomes of what I tried to raise in this thread, which is that there is a ****load of money owed to the club, and Donald MAY (I don't have time right now to check the details) have completely written off a massive chunk of the debt he has to the club.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/s...91/Sunderland-buyers-20-5m-hole-accounts.html

 

[The Norton Cat]

So if this article is true, it would represent potentially one of the worse outcomes of what I tried to raise in this thread, which is that there is a ****load of money owed to the club, and Donald MAY (I don't have time right now to check the details) have completely written off a massive chunk of the debt he has to the club.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/s...91/Sunderland-buyers-20-5m-hole-accounts.html

I can't say that finances of this type are something that I ever have to concern myself with but, with the article stating that the money will be paid back by some means, this just seems like a journalist out to stir up trouble.

 

[Kittenmittons]

I can't say that finances of this type are something that I ever have to concern myself with but, with the article stating that the money will be paid back by some means, this just seems like a journalist out to stir up trouble.

I think I need to have a read through. If they are serious about the obligation to pay back £20m+ back being removed, then that is a massive development. Even if they say they will do it, removing the obligation is not a positive step and exactly what I said could happen in a nuclear scenario.

I'll hold my hands up though, I didn't think they'd have the balls to wipe it off. Doing it is basically the end of the line for Donald from my perspective.

And still, in all of this, we don't know how much - if any - of the extra money loaned in April 2019 has been put back. Scary how much borrowing they have done from the club.