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[carlthejackal]

Look at Zidane. He is Algerian, Muslim (I believe), and he has started his coaching career very slowly. He is coaching Real Madrid Castilla IIRC and not hurrying to get the job he could walk into immediately at say Getafe or Rayo Vallecano.

What needs to happen is that black coaches should be encouraged - especially at lower leagues. Eventually the best will rise up just like they do on the pitch. That way it balances out the palying field and answers the question of whether or not they can handle it. I think they can but the process has to be started - it never was and I think that is a problem. So if you're complaining that you're black and can't be hired, why not try League 2 or lower? I'm sure there are clubs that would jump at the opportunity.

Danilo, how do you know they've not tried at lower levels? I think the complaint is not that they are no black coaches or managers in the top flight. The complaint is that they are very few black managers and coaches in professional football full stop. Many black players do their coaching courses and when it comes to giving them a post at a lower level, they do not get given a chance.

There are a high number of black players in professional football, with every top team having at least a couple of black players. A few decades ago, there were very few such players in the top clubs. We all remember how Barnes was treated. Now it is normal to have black players for us. The same thing is happening with coaches and managers. All they are asking is to be given a chance. How can they prove themselves if they cannot even get a job at the lowest level?

 

[Flappy Flanagan (JK)]

You made and shared an honest observation that you shouldn't have to apologise for. Stifling debate isn't the way forward anymore than being racist is [I'm not accusing anyone of that btw, just a general comment].

Just a suggestion - Have a look at the way you worded your OP and see if you could have put it another way to get the same observation across. In keeping with most of the sentiments of the thread, it shouldn't be any different saying something like 'we've got the most black players of any PL team' to 'we've got the most Spanish/Italian/Nordic/tall/short players ......' Otherwise we're not going to be able to make any observations involving a players colour at all and that could be wrong too.

Fair point.

I obviously approached this topic in the wrong way.

He do have a good balance in our squad.

 

[johnsonsbaby]

Fair point.

I obviously approached this topic in the wrong way.

He do have a good balance in our squad.

I just don't want you feeling bad for making this thread, you've already said that you've learned something from it and learning and moving forward is what we should all be striving for.

 

[Flappy Flanagan (JK)]

I just don't want you feeling bad for making this thread, you've already said that you've learned something from it and learning and moving forward is what we should all be striving for.

indeed.

Thanks.

 

[danilo.]

Look at Zidane. He is Algerian, Muslim (I believe), and he has started his coaching career very slowly. He is coaching Real Madrid Castilla IIRC and not hurrying to get the job he could walk into immediately at say Getafe or Rayo Vallecano.

What needs to happen is that black coaches should be encouraged - especially at lower leagues. Eventually the best will rise up just like they do on the pitch. That way it balances out the palying field and answers the question of whether or not they can handle it. I think they can but the process has to be started - it never was and I think that is a problem. So if you're complaining that you're black and can't be hired, why not try League 2 or lower? I'm sure there are clubs that would jump at the opportunity.

Danilo, how do you know they've not tried at lower levels? I think the complaint is not that they are no black coaches or managers in the top flight. The complaint is that they are very few black managers and coaches in professional football full stop. Many black players do their coaching courses and when it comes to giving them a post at a lower level, they do not get given a chance.

There are a high number of black players in professional football, with every top team having at least a couple of black players. A few decades ago, there were very few such players in the top clubs. We all remember how Barnes was treated. Now it is normal to have black players for us. The same thing is happening with coaches and managers. All they are asking is to be given a chance. How can they prove themselves if they cannot even get a job at the lowest level?

How do you know that they have? Like I said I'd like to see numbers before I jump to conclusions but that is why I pointed it out. I believe they would absolutely be given a chance in the lower leagues - the same way almost every manager bar former legends get their first start. In order for this to even be an argument there has to be evidence of institutionalised racism - I don't doubt that it exists but I somehow doubt that it is the sole reason there aren't black managers. Who is being denied a position? Where are the recorded incidents of this happening? Surely if its happening it would be easy to find.

Another thing is that many black players are not English and probably don't have any connection to the bottom leagues - they don't want to work day in day out for Stevenage or Tranmere after playing for Chelsea or United or AC Milan. They'd rather go back to their homeland and be a star or stay at the top level in England via punditry or a direct role at a top club. Which in my opinion isn't an excuse - you don't get a "chance" at the top just because you were famous.

At the bottom of the ladder you have to prove that black footballers and others are being actively denied positions or promotions. I haven't seen any proof of this other than anecdotal or circumstantial evidence. If there are pure numbers or incidents then I'd gladly think of a way to solve it but for now it just seems that nobody wants to actually start at the bottom and work up.

In terms of job positions in the US for example it is documented that blacks are passed over for whites, statistically and historically speaking. There is an argument there. But until we get names of clubs that have denied all black applicants or records of incidents then its unfortunately not debatable. So far I don't know who these black footballers are that are being denied. If it is happening regularly because they are black then honestly fine the **** out of the clubs doing it and name them. But if no one is reporting it there is no evidence unfortunately.

I want more chances for black footballers and managers but the issue needs to be studied before assuming the whole system is racist.

 

[danilo.]

Also don't get me wrong I think the current generation of footballers is acting a bit entitled, not just black footballers. White ones too - expecting jobs and direct roles after their careers.

Honestly go apply at a conference level side and you'll get a job no problem if you're a former player. Yeah it doesn't pay that well but that's why Rodgers and Mourinho started at the bottom and got to the top through hard work.

The problem is that for black managers to come through English systems they have to both be black and English, have played or made enough connections to be able to find potential openings, and on top of that be willing to work from the bottom. These three things have the potential to complicate things and make false appearances of racism. They could also be irrelevant and the system shuts out everyone based on their skin. We won't know until an independent report is made.

 

[Flappy Flanagan (JK)]

Also don't get me wrong I think the current generation of footballers is acting a bit entitled, not just black footballers. White ones too - expecting jobs and direct roles after their careers.

Honestly go apply at a conference level side and you'll get a job no problem if you're a former player. Yeah it doesn't pay that well but that's why Rodgers and Mourinho started at the bottom and got to the top through hard work.

The problem is that for black managers to come through English systems they have to both be black and English, have played or made enough connections to be able to find potential openings, and on top of that be willing to work from the bottom. These three things have the potential to complicate things and make false appearances of racism. They could also be irrelevant and the system shuts out everyone based on their skin. We won't know until an independent report is made.

I couldnt agree more.

They also aim straight for the managers post. Surely starting as a coach, youth manager or assistant and working up is easier and a better learning curve.

Rodgers and Benitez started coaching kids. AVB was Mourinho's assistant.

Clubs are a bit to blame to though, always hiring the same guys again and again. Why did Crystal Palace hire Warnock again when Malky Mckay is a better and more ambitious manager?

Warnock, Bruce and Hughes always go in these circles between clubs, but their CV's are not great. Pulis will now join this circle.

Clubs should be more daring.

 

[johnsonsbaby]

I couldnt agree more.

They also aim straight for the managers post. Surely starting as a coach, youth manager or assistant and working up is easier and a better learning curve.

Rodgers and Benitez started coaching kids. AVB was Mourinho's assistant.

Clubs are a bit to blame to though, always hiring the same guys again and again. Why did Crystal Palace hire Warnock again when Malky Mckay is a better and more ambitious manager?

Warnock, Bruce and Hughes always go in these circles between clubs, but their CV's are not great. Pulis will now join this circle.

Clubs should be more daring.

Do you think some of it is down to fans expectations? Clubs don't want to take the risk in bringing in an unknown.

 

[Flappy Flanagan (JK)]

Do you think some of it is down to fans expectations? Clubs don't want to take the risk in bringing in an unknown.

I'd think Palace fans would surely be thinking 'not Warnock again'. I think its more about financial risk.

 

[Page_Moss_Kopite]

Up until England's game against Switzerland only 75 black players have ever been capped at senior level.

http://www.englandfootballonline.com/TeamBlack/Black.html

I wonder how many of those mentioned in the article that have since retired from playing have been given the opportunity to go into coaching/management, John Barnes for one had a go but was not good enough to hack it.

No matter the skin colour the best players don't always make the best managers.

 

[Flappy Flanagan (JK)]

Up until England's game against Switzerland only 75 black players have ever been capped at senior level.

http://www.englandfootballonline.com/TeamBlack/Black.html

I wonder how many of those mentioned in the article that have since retired from playing have been given the opportunity to go into coaching/management, John Barnes for one had a go but was not good enough to hack it.

No matter the skin colour the best players don't always make the best managers.

I'd be interested to know how many of those are from the last 10 years.

If its more than 50 the FA should celebrate. The issues of the past will always effect stats like this, even after things have improved. It has improved.

 

[THE FOOL]

I couldnt agree more.

They also aim straight for the managers post. Surely starting as a coach, youth manager or assistant and working up is easier and a better learning curve.

Rodgers and Benitez started coaching kids. AVB was Mourinho's assistant.

Clubs are a bit to blame to though, always hiring the same guys again and again. Why did Crystal Palace hire Warnock again when Malky Mckay is a better and more ambitious manager?

Warnock, Bruce and Hughes always go in these circles between clubs, but their CV's are not great. Pulis will now join this circle.

Clubs should be more daring.

I think the game of pass the parcel with managers from club to club is as much at fault as anything. If there is a position free you know the bookies will have the same old names vying for the position. To get a job in management you need to be very lucky apart from the chosen few international players who get given a high profile job straight away and usually **** it up, it is the same names constantly recycled. Its only comparatively recently that new young managers are being given a chance.

 

[Flappy Flanagan (JK)]

Why has no onne hired Di Matteo since he left Chelsea?

He had a great start at West Brom and won the CL and FA Cup with Chelsea.

Has he raised his standards to high or are clubs to scared to break out of the manager merry go round?

It is not even that more exciting managers are not available.

 

[carlthejackal]

..... I somehow doubt that it is the sole reason there aren't black managers. Who is being denied a position? Where are the recorded incidents of this happening? Surely if its happening it would be easy to find.

...They'd rather go back to their homeland and be a star or stay at the top level in England via punditry or a direct role at a top club...

At the bottom of the ladder you have to prove that black footballers and others are being actively denied positions or promotions. I haven't seen any proof of this other than anecdotal or circumstantial evidence. ..

I want more chances for black footballers and managers but the issue needs to be studied before assuming the whole system is racist.

I agree that there is no ACTUAL proof. It is not as if when someone is denied an opportunity they will be told " You have not been selected or even shortlisted because of the colour of your skin"...

While actual proof or evidence is lacking and not likely to be forthcoming, the figures do not lie. Yes, many people do not want to go into coaching or management. And some want to do punditry etc.

But if one looks at the figures which the FA looked into recently: the number of black explayers who have done their coaching badges and the proportion of those that get into a caoching jo and compare that with the white players. It seems that the figure for the black coaches is pretty embarassing.

I know some people will not want to believe figures and will weant aboslute proof of racism. It is not that overt. It is subtle. For example if there is a vacancy for a coaching post. How do you prove that the black candidate was not short listed or selected because the owners or executives or officials did not want a black coach?

Very difficult to prove on a case by case basis. We all know how a few decades ago the police denied that racism existed within their midst. It was very difficult to prove even at the time we knew something was not right e.g the number of black faces was so small compared to the general population. The evidence was so difficult to get.

I am not saying that the situation in football is the same as in the police force. I am saying that we need to keep an open mind and this kind of thing is not beyond the realms of possibility.

 

[terrifictraore]

I agree that there is no ACTUAL proof..............

While actual proof or evidence is lacking and not likely to be forthcoming, the figures do not lie...................

So, you have no proof yet claim the figures do not lie as if this is some kind of "proof" WTF???????
Figures only lie when people cause them to either by fiddling, misrepresenting or by asking the wrong question.

This is far too big an issue to jump to a completely illogical conclusion, don't get me wrong I think it is very strange that we still have a lack of black managers at the top level and the impact of historical racism will undoubtedly be a factor. However, to attempt to pin all of the blame for this on modern day racist " owners or executives or officials" does a real disservice to the equality struggle.

Please remember the statistical mantra of correlation does not equate to causation.

 

[Super G Ted'inho]

Why has no onne hired Di Matteo since he left Chelsea?

He had a great start at West Brom and won the CL and FA Cup with Chelsea.

Has he raised his standards to high or are clubs to scared to break out of the manager merry go round?

It is not even that more exciting managers are not available.

He's not black

#racism

 

[terrifictraore]

How do you prove that the black candidate was not short listed or selected because the owners or executives or officials did not want a black coach?

Very difficult to prove on a case by case basis.

Yes it is very difficult but you could at least start with some statistical data to show numbers of suitably qualified black players who applied for posts yet were not short listed (or if short listed not selected) balanced against the numbers of other ethnic groups with similar levels of qualification who were or were not short listed/selected. This still would not give a reason why it was happening but it would at least give you a statistical basis on which to base your hypothesis.

Whilst you were at it you could also gather data on suitably qualified black players who did not even bother applying because they felt they would not be selected because of their race and maybe even factor in other ethnic groups who again although suitably qualified did not bother applying because they felt it was not worth it just because their "face did not fit" with that particular club for some reason, eg not famous enough, played for rivals, too old, too young, too posh, wrong style of football, wrong style of management etc.

In some ways I would hope that this has been done already so that it can be used to show how we can best direct efforts to alleviate the issue rather than just jumping up and down shouting racists at people.

 

[carlthejackal]

So, you have no proof yet claim the figures do not lie as if this is some kind of "proof" WTF???????
Figures only lie when people cause them to either by fiddling, misrepresenting or by asking the wrong question.

...

I am afraid you are totally getting the wrong end of the stick here:

No proof of INDIVIDUAL cases of racism: not selected, not short listed etc.

BUT statistical FIGURES are highly suggestive that something was not right: in terms in numbers of black people with coaching badges, applications from black candidates and actual number of black coaches in football. These figures HAVE been collated by the FA and that is why they can say it was embarassing. they woudn't have stuck their neck out and said that if for example black individuals/ex layers were not interested in coaching or managing.

 

[carlthejackal]

Yes it is very difficult but you could at least start with some statistical data to show numbers of suitably qualified black players who applied for posts yet were not short listed (or if short listed not selected) balanced against the numbers of other ethnic groups with similar levels of qualification who were or were not short listed/selected. This still would not give a reason why it was happening but it would at least give you a statistical basis on which to base your hypothesis.

Whilst you were at it you could also gather data on suitably qualified black players who did not even bother applying because they felt they would not be selected because of their race and maybe even factor in other ethnic groups who again although suitably qualified did not bother applying because they felt it was not worth it just because their "face did not fit" with that particular club for some reason, eg not famous enough, played for rivals, too old, too young, too posh, wrong style of football, wrong style of management etc.

In some ways I would hope that this has been done already so that it can be used to show how we can best direct efforts to alleviate the issue rather than just jumping up and down shouting racists at people.

see my previous reply: already done by the FA who used their data as evidence that something was not right.

 

[jenners04]

see my previous reply: already done by the FA who used their data as evidence that something was not right.

something may not be right, but i bet no more than what is already wrong with our corrupt fa for starters. they have had internal racism etc and tried to push it under the carpet the hypocritical ****s!

also as said, how many ex black players etc just expect to walk straight into a managerial job without the graft they should do at lower levels first like everyone else usually does.

be interesting to see when they retire in the game, if they choose to go down that route, that players like Rio and Glenn Johsnon etc will they do the graft, or because of the status they have had in the game expect to walk into a top managerial job?

i reckon a lot of them want to be on tele as a pundit or something my self.