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Gerrez said:
I tend to look at it differently. If you're good enough then you will get to where you want to be regardless of someone making un-PC decisions such as employing the fit girl first. Same guys for black players and managers. What annoys me is the need to highlight it. It effectively makes a us and them type scenario between blacks and whites. That in itself is racism IMO. We are all human, it doesn't matter what colour skin we have just as much as it doesn't matter what colour hair you have or what weight you are.
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you would say that, you lazy fat bald batard :bandit:
 
johnsonsbaby said:
Apparently the taller and the blonder you are as a woman, the more likely you are to get the job.

We only get to know just how much racism black players are subjected to if and when they come out and say it. The overt stuff - bananas, chants etc. is easy to pick up on but the more subtle stuff we never know about. What if it's the same when black men try to get into coaching - there's remarks like I wouldn't bother if I was you or worse. We can't say with any accuracy whether it does or doesn't happen - unless someone comes out and says it - so while it's nice to say best man gets the job what if behind the scenes there are men of colour being knocked back before they're even given a chance. This is the sort of thing that brought about the Rooney Rule in the US.
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true jb sadly,

i do think it should be like gerrez said in all walks of life, ie best person for the job etc, there is discrimination of all sorts in all walks of life job wise, ageism,tatooes, fit office girl etc etc, it just so happens in football that may or may not be racism ie more black managers etc, i still think its a lot of them don't want to go down that route, but like you said we wont know until they come out and tell us that's the case.

the sad reality is though that a black manager not getting a fair chance will make headlines and action may happen as a result, where as me for arguments sake was old, **** off before i get any snide comments <laugh> or had tattoos (which i do) was discriminated against, it wouldn't eve ruffle any ones feathers, both scenarios are wrong, its just one is supposedly more pc correct than the other one, both are wrong and should be dealt with in my opinion.
 
jenners04 said:
true jb sadly,

i do think it should be like gerrez said in all walks of life, ie best person for the job etc, there is discrimination of all sorts in all walks of life job wise, ageism,tatooes, fit office girl etc etc, it just so happens in football that may or may not be racism ie more black managers etc, i still think its a lot of them don't want to go down that route, but like you said we wont know until they come out and tell us that's the case.

the sad reality is though that a black manager not getting a fair chance will make headlines and action may happen as a result, where as me for arguments sake was old, f** off before i get any snide comments <laugh> or had tattoos (which i do) was discriminated against, it wouldn't eve ruffle any ones feathers, both scenarios are wrong, its just one is supposedly more pc correct than the other one, both are wrong and should be dealt with in my opinion.
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You're right mate, the only thing I will say is that if a private company has a policy about appearance for example then they are within their rights to not employ someone with tattoos, piercings etc. Some draw the line and say no visible tattoos, and if you want to be cabin crew for an airline with this policy [only example I could think of atm] then you'd be daft to get a tattoo you knew broke their 'rules'. If it's outside the law like B&B owners not allowing gay couples to stay then that's a different scenario but if I had my own co. I'd like to feel I could lay down some rules and not be harassed for it, otherwise we go too far in pleasing the 'complainers' and only respecting their rights when we should respect everyone's rights and personal feelings about tattoos, as we've used that example, shouldn't come into the decision.

I think it's a noble stance 'best man for the job' but I still feel we don't do enough to encourage other races or the disabled etc. etc. for us to get to the best man since we may have actually rejected a better man for the job because he was black. How to encourage them is another argument.
 
Gerrez said:
The fact that anyone as even noticed that we have a trio of black players playing upfront is the concerning thing for me. WTF does it matter?
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This

why would anyone notice that our three strikers are black and therefore should be highlighted.

Whether we like it or not fair or unfair race is something we as a club and as supporters too we should rather stay circumspect about. The last thing we want to do is raise this as an issue when no such thing is needed...<ok>
 
Noticing some ones skin colour is not a bad thing.

Its no different from me being able to say the whole squads hair colour (apart from a few youngsters).

Maybe this topic was ill advised of me. But it is a topic that has been going on for decades.

The FA favourites lean was meant a bit tongue in cheek but obviously that was ill advised. Its not my opinion that we should get favoritism.

Lets just move on from it.
 
Think our work has gone the other way.. We never bloody hire the fit young girl!!
 
Flappy Flanagan (JK) said:
Noticing some ones skin colour is not a bad thing.

Its no different from me being able to say the whole squads hair colour (apart from a few youngsters).
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You're right, noticing it skin colour isn't a problem. However, where is the article highlighting how many gingers we have in the squad?

I'm not having a pop at you Flappy, I just find it annoying that things like this crop up. People point at numbers of black people involved in football as a racial thing but the lack of numbers isn't the issue, the looking at it is.
 
Gerrez said:
You're right, noticing it skin colour isn't a problem. However, where is the article highlighting how many gingers we have in the squad?

I'm not having a pop at you Flappy, I just find it annoying that things like this crop up.
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i could probably tell you how many in the same way i know how many black players we have, havent a ruddy clue to be honest or care, its their feet that do the talking lol.

coincidently, it was a ginger that was a ruddy hero for this club, he had the nickname super sub <ok> (and i may or may not have spoken to his daughter, not sure, was pissed lol)
 
jenners04 said:
i could probably tell you how many in the same way i know how many black players we have, havent a ruddy clue to be honest or care, its their feet that do the talking lol.

coincidently, it was a ginger that was a ruddy hero for this club, he had the nickname super sub <ok> (and i may or may not have spoken to his daughter, not sure, was pissed lol)
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Did you, you know...? :bandit:
 
Gerrez said:
You're right, noticing it skin colour isn't a problem. However, where is the article highlighting how many gingers we have in the squad?

I'm not having a pop at you Flappy, I just find it annoying that things like this crop up. People point at numbers of black people involved in football as a racial thing but the lack of numbers isn't the issue, the looking at it is.
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Fair enough. I understand and agree. I have also learnt from this thread.
 
Gerrez said:
Did you, you know...? :bandit:
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well i wouldn't have said no lol.

you ever phoned into a show or anything? its weird, you think of everything to ruddy say before hand, and when they finally answer, you forget everything and just talk bollocks <laugh>
 
jenners04 said:
well i wouldn't have said no lol.

you ever phoned into a show or anything? its weird, you think of everything to ruddy say before hand, and when they finally answer, you forget everything and just talk bollocks <laugh>
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Although I know what you mean, no I've never phoned into a show. I refuse to do radios interviews etc for work too <laugh>
 
Flappy Flanagan (JK) said:
Fair enough. I understand and agree. I have also learnt from this thread.
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You made and shared an honest observation that you shouldn't have to apologise for. Stifling debate isn't the way forward anymore than being racist is [I'm not accusing anyone of that btw, just a general comment].

Just a suggestion - Have a look at the way you worded your OP and see if you could have put it another way to get the same observation across. In keeping with most of the sentiments of the thread, it shouldn't be any different saying something like 'we've got the most black players of any PL team' to 'we've got the most Spanish/Italian/Nordic/tall/short players ......' Otherwise we're not going to be able to make any observations involving a players colour at all and that could be wrong too.
 
What I don't like about the no black managers argument is that it discounts the work done by most coaches in the top flight to get to where they are today. Mourinho started at Uniao Leira or whatever. Rodgers started as a youth coach at Reading. And so on and so on.

Any time a spot in the top three leagues opens up everyone goes mental wondering why these clubs don't accept a black manager. I don't understand WHY a club would risk their future and survival on nothing but a name. Sol Campbell couldn't just take charge of even a League 1 team and do well.

Why don't the perennial candidates start where others started? At the bottom of the ladder, working their way up like many other managers did. Is it no surprise that when Seedorf gets the Milan job with no previous managing experience that he doesn't do well? And that removes the incentive to experiment for clubs when they see that kind of result. The same happens with white candidates that aren't sufficiently prepared. The exception of course being top level teams with legendary players retiring into roles as a gift. In that case you have to ask why don't more black players ask for the same? Or do they and are they getting denied?

I'm well aware that institutionalised racism that prevents young coaches from rising up the ranks is a problem but I'd have to see numbers on how many black coaching staff start in lower leagues compared to how many white coaching staff do.

Also I'm aware that Seedorf wasn't awful but he certainly wasn't a success either. Milan gave him a chance and they should be commended for that but ultimately Seedorf needs coaching experience with an earlier age group, then reserves, then first team.
 
Look at Zidane. He is Algerian, Muslim (I believe), and he has started his coaching career very slowly. He is coaching Real Madrid Castilla IIRC and not hurrying to get the job he could walk into immediately at say Getafe or Rayo Vallecano.

What needs to happen is that black coaches should be encouraged - especially at lower leagues. Eventually the best will rise up just like they do on the pitch. That way it balances out the palying field and answers the question of whether or not they can handle it. I think they can but the process has to be started - it never was and I think that is a problem. So if you're complaining that you're black and can't be hired, why not try League 2 or lower? I'm sure there are clubs that would jump at the opportunity.
 
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