Off Topic European Debate Thread

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In, out, or undecided?

  • In

    Votes: 12 27.3%
  • Out

    Votes: 27 61.4%
  • Undecided

    Votes: 5 11.4%

  • Total voters
    44
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what happens when we vote leave?
Brussels will say OK P*** OFF
Brussels will say OK lets get down to the nitty gritty and talk sense
Brussels will say oops we don't talk sense so forget the last one
Brussels will say lets have another meeting to see if we can keep you in as your cash will delay us really screwing up and going bust
Brussels will say we will drop the law on bent or short banana's
Brussels will just pretend nothing has happened and fine us for not paying enough or having the balls to dissent
Brussels will offer MTG a job in the spin doctors office ... lol
 
The EU: Myths and Truths
Without any coherent arguments about why Britain should remain in the EU, Europhiles resort to constant scaremongering.
GET BRITAIN OUT sets the record straight on what would happen if Britain gets out the EU:

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MYTH 1: Brexit would damage trade with our European neighbours.
Europhiles claim leaving the EU would sour diplomatic and trade relations with other Member States, making it harder for Britain to trade within the Single Market.
TRUTH: British Businesses do not need the EU to trade
In addition to the lucrative trade and investment deals with the rest of the world, Britain imports more from the EU than it exports to the EU.
This means we are the EU’s biggest customer – larger than China and the US – and no business – let alone the EU – would want to cut off ties with such a valuable customer as Britain. Can you imagine France wanting to damage sales of French cheeses, wines and champagne to Britain; Germany damaging sales of BMW and Mercedes cars to Britain? No! Trade will carry on as normal, without the political interference we currently suffer from Brussels.
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MYTH 2: Britain cannot survive economically outside the EU
We are told Britain cannot compete in the world without help from the EU, and without EU membership we would not have access to the Single Market.
Europhiles argue we need to be part of a trade bloc in today’s globalised world, ignoring successful independent countries all over the world.
TRUTH: Britain WILL thrive economically outside the EU
Britain is a global trading power and exports more to the rest of the world than it does to Europe.
Britain has the world’s 6th largest economy and is set to become the largest in Europe by 2035.
The EU’s share of world GDP is in terminal decline. In 1980, the EU’s world share of GDP was 26%. It is now just 20%, and will have fallen to 15% by 2020.
Currently all Britain’s trade deals must be negotiated by the EU, which on average take twice as long or more to agree and finalise than those negotiated by independent countries, such as Switzerland.
MYTH 3: Britain’s membership of the European Union can be substantially reformed
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For the past 40 years, successive British Prime Ministers have tried to make our EU membership work for Britain. So far, whether it was Margaret Thatcher’s hard-line stance, or Tony Blair’s supine grovelling, none have succeeded in positively changing the terms of our long-term EU membership.
TRUTH: Substantial change to our relationship with the EU can only be achieved by Brexit
David Cameron has already stated his intention to stay within a ‘reformed’ EU. Many fear this to be a replay of Harold Wilson’s ill-fated 1975 Referendum, in which largely cosmetic ‘renegotiation’ misled the public into staying.
EU leaders have already ruled out any weakening of the principle of Freedom of Movement and want to retain ‘open borders’.
Once Britain states her intention to leave the EU – by using Article 50 – a 2-year negotiation period will take place. This will include, reinstating border controls for all citizens coming into Britain. Britain will be free to negotiate the more favourable terms we want and need.
Research by Open Europe estimates a free-trading Britain outside the EU could increase its GDP by 1.6%.
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MYTH 4: Britain will lose influence in the world
The pro-EU lobby say Britain will lose its influence on the ‘world stage’.
TRUTH: Britain would have more say on trade and regulation
Britain has opposed 55 EU Directives since 1996, and has been outvoted every time – so the myth Britain currently wields any influence in Brussels is nonsense. Our EU membership gets us nowhere.
In addition, it is estimated around 70% of decisions made in the EU Council of Ministers are already implemented before they reach the voting stage.
An independent Britain would regain its own seat within international institutions such as the World Trade Organisation, in which Britain can pursue its own national interests.
(there are no other major international organisations which the EU fully represents us, largely smaller fisheries bodies etc)
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MYTH 5: Britain would lose three million jobs
This myth originated from a report by the National Institute for Economic and Social Research in 2004.The report incorrectly stated 3.2 million British jobs ‘associated’ with exports to the EU would be lost if we come out of the EU.
TRUTH: Leaving the EU will create far more jobs for Britons in the long-term
This myth assumes the £228 billion worth of goods and services Britain exports to the EU would drop to zero the day after Britain leaves the EU! This was comprehensively refuted by Treasury civil servants in August 2014.
Moreover, the Director of the National Institute of Economic and Social Research in 1999, Martin Weale, has since confirmed the report does not claim 3 million jobs rely on our EU membership, denouncing this Europhile propaganda as “pure Goebbels”.
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MYTH 6: Britain will be isolated on the ‘world stage’ if we leave the EU
We are told Britain must be a member of the European Union in order to have influence in the world.
TRUTH: Britain will be able to work closer with our natural allies in the Commonwealth – and the rest of the world
The EU is not the sole international organisation in the world. Britain is already a leading member of NATO, and we have a seat on the UN Security Council.
We have cultural and historic links with countries all over the world and are regarded as the world’s leading “soft-power” state. All of this is unrelated to our membership of the EU.
The United States; Australia; Canada; New Zealand; India; Hong Kong – Britain has strong ties with all of these important global, self-governing nations.
By leaving the EU, we will have the independence of action to co-operate more with our allies within the Commonwealth, whilst still retaining friendly relations with Europe.
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MYTH 7: The EU protects democracy in Europe
The European Parliament portrays itself as the guarantor of the democracy in Europe.
TRUTH: Westminster protects democracy in Britain
The European project destroys democracy by replacing nationally elected politicians with unelected bureaucrats.
On the rare occasion the EU has consulted the electorates of Member States, such as in referendums held by the Netherlands and Ireland to ratify the Constitutional Treaty, the results were rejected by the EU. The Constitutional Treaty was repackaged as the Lisbon Treaty, with minor alterations. Brussels then forced the Netherlands and Ireland to vote again to approve the Lisbon Treaty.
The European Parliament cannot propose legislation. It is only able to approve or reject legislation proposed by the unelected European Commission – as such, it is a toothless institution. The European Commission’s rulings bypasses Westminster ensuring laws voted through the European Parliament are forced upon Britain, furthermore our limited influence in Brussels ensures European laws can be implemented even if all British MEPs voted against them.
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MYTH 8: The EU has stopped seeking greater political powers for Brussels
Many believe we have reached the high water mark of EU authority. Margaret Thatcher signed away many of our vetoes through the Single European Act, because she was led to believe the Single European Act was the last European treaty Britain would have to sign up to – though this was not the case.
TRUTH: The EU will not stop until Europe has become a federal superstate
All treaties of the European Union clearly set out the principle of Member States continuing to seek “ever closer union”, which means the EU gradually evolves into a single unified state, while the Member States are reduced to mere provinces of a federal Europe. The only way to prevent the UK from becoming a European province is to Get Britain Out of the EU.
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MYTH 9: Brexit would drive European Premier League footballers out of the UK
This claim by the Guardian newspaper suggests that two thirds of European football stars in England wouldn’t meet the criteria used for non-European overseas players to automatically qualify for a work visa. This led the paper to predict that Premier Leaguefootball squads would be “decimated” if the UK voted to leave the EU.
TRUTH: Leaving the EU would enable the Football Association and the government to loosen the requirements for foreign footballers to play in Britain.
The FA itself has recognised the recent restrictions on skilled immigration from non-EU countries are the direct consequence of the EU’s freedom of movement rules. Leaving the EU would enable the UK to relax the current requirements for foreign footballers to obtain a sponsorship licence from the FA. This would enable more top footballers from both inside and outside of Europe to play in Britain.
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MYTH 10: Many EU rules will still be in place after leaving
Some civil servants and Europhiles are saying the UK will be beset with legal difficulties following our exit from the EU. They say it will take up to 10 years for us to completely unravel ourselves from the EU. In addition to the current lengthy renegotiation process, they claim Britain will be forced to retain many EU rules, regulations and directives.
TRUTH: A managed withdrawal from the EU will place British interests first
Reports on Brexit for the Institute of Economic Affairs have identified over 3000 pieces of EU legislation which would ideally need to be reformed or repealed following Britain leaving the EU. Britain would still retain membership of the World Trade Organisation, the World Customs Organisation, and its countless UN appointments concerning international regulation. We would simply remove the most negative aspects of EU red tape. While 10 years might sound long, it is likely to be an overestimate – which also demonstrates the appalling amount of interference Brussels has over Britain. Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty states a Member State leaving the EU will undergo 2 years to negotiate its terms. Being one of the biggest customers of EU goods, such talks will go favourably. Even pro-EU Prime Minister Tony Blair admitted Britain would have access to the Single Market just “as Norway and Switzerland do”. Brexit should be as cordial as possible, keeping former laws until they are gradually replaced, reformed, or repealed will result in the most stable outcome.
 
Spot on Wiz.. all the things we have been saying in one article..

No one has come up with a single coherent argument against any of the those points!
 
Which country do you want to model post brexit on (baring immigration in mind)

Why do we need to copy another country? We want to be our own country and take the lead in the world. We can do this by using all the good positive points from other countries and also learn from all of their mistakes, so we will be making our own model.
 
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I am arguing that a post brexit immigration policy with the EU will be largely unchanged.

The EU won't want to stop trading with us but they won't want to sell themselves cheaply to us and give us a better deal than on the table to EU members. We need them more than they need us and so negotiations post brxit could only go one way

Its been proved that the EU needs us more than we need them. We are the 2nd or 3rd net contributor to the EU. We get more trade from the EU than what we trade with them. These are not opinions but facts. Also where we were doing so well, the EU demanded more contributions from us which Cameron refused to pay but then easily gave in. We were penalised because the pound was doing so much better than the Euro. How is that fair?

Of course we may not get the same trade deal we currently have with the EU so could lose money from it but WE will then be in a better position to set up better trade deals with the rest of the world than what is currently in place between the EU and the rest of the world. Setting up better trade deals with Canada, America, India and China for example. It won't take years to set up either like in other models from other countries have took. These other countries from the rest of the world will be desperate to set up deals with us due to us being the 5th best economy country. Setting up with us will help them grow too. The money we could lose from trade with the EU will easily be replaced plus billions more from trade deals with the rest of the world.

No brainer really.
 
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The only issue I have with leaving is if we have our current politicians in charge when we leave the EU. We will have 2 years before we actually leave the EU which gives us time to start negotiations with the EU and the rest of the world on trade also sorting out our immigration policy and everything else so we are ready for when we leave. We will need a fair few strong leaders than what we have now that's for sure. That's my worry because im not sure we have these. This alone is not enough to persuade me to remain though but is a concern. The British people will get the choice to elect new leaders anyway so the responsibility is on us to get it right.
 
Why do we need to copy another country? We want to be our own country and take the lead in the world. We can do this by using all the good positive points from other countries and also learn from all of their mistakes, so we will be making our own model.
The point is that no one has any idea what we are going to do when we leave. All systems outside the Eu are flawed in some way or the other and we will not get these utopian no strings attached trade deals everyone is on about
 
The point is that no one has any idea what we are going to do when we leave. All systems outside the Eu are flawed in some way or the other and we will not get these utopian no strings attached trade deals everyone is on about

You asked what country we will copy. I answered you. And your only response is this?
You say no one has any idea what we are going to do when we leave but we all keep telling you but it seems that you dont want to listen. As for your trade comments, thats been answered already in another comment of mine and im sure by others too <ok>
 
The point is that no one has any idea what we are going to do when we leave. All systems outside the Eu are flawed in some way or the other and we will not get these utopian no strings attached trade deals everyone is on about

If you have no idea what is going to happen if we leave the EU, Why are you coming up with all these terrible scenarios about what will happen when we leave when you have just admitted you have no idea what will happen??.. On about contradict yourself?

If the systems outside the EU are flawed then the ones inside must be horrendous!
 
There is only one unanswered question left in this debate for me and its the only one that is baffling me.

I haven't seen a single argument that comes anywhere near a common sense reason as to why we should stay in, and

Allow open borders and the social issues it would inevitably cause.

Continue to allow unelected bureaucrats to make laws above our own elected leaders.

Allow unelected bureaucrats to tell us who we can and can't trade with.

Allow Europe to push us ever towards a federal states of Europe.

Yet, political leaders who have not made a good case at all for staying, are apoplectic about the very real possibility that they may lose this referendum, despite both main leaders having an anti EU stance long before the reality of a referendum. (I still believe Corbyn wants out really!)

Whats in it for them???

Because something doesn't smell right...
 
If we wake up on the 24th June to find that we are still members of the EU then to all those who voted to remain in the EU...thank you!

Thank you for allowing the millions who died defending this country to die in vain.

Thank you for allowing our rights enshrined in Magna Carta to be lost forever.

Thank you for losing us our sovereignty and the right to govern ourselves.

Thank you for not having the courage to believe in the UK and its peoples.

Thank you for your betrayal of this great country, its traditions, its democracy and what it stood for.

Thank you for preferring to live under the rule of another country rather than in a proud independent nation.

And thank you for your lack of support of Great Britain in its hour of need, unlike many of your fathers and grandfathers who fought to guarantee your freedom so that you could vote to simply give it away...
 
If we wake up on the 24th June to find that we are still members of the EU then to all those who voted to remain in the EU...thank you!

Thank you for allowing the millions who died defending this country to die in vain.

Thank you for allowing our rights enshrined in Magna Carta to be lost forever.

Thank you for losing us our sovereignty and the right to govern ourselves.

Thank you for not having the courage to believe in the UK and its peoples.

Thank you for your betrayal of this great country, its traditions, its democracy and what it stood for.

Thank you for preferring to live under the rule of another country rather than in a proud independent nation.

And thank you for your lack of support of Great Britain in its hour of need, unlike many of your fathers and grandfathers who fought to guarantee your freedom so that you could vote to simply give it away...
You're welcome
 
If you have no idea what is going to happen if we leave the EU, Why are you coming up with all these terrible scenarios about what will happen when we leave when you have just admitted you have no idea what will happen??.. On about contradict yourself?

If the systems outside the EU are flawed then the ones inside must be horrendous!
The uncertaincy of leaving is too big a risk
 
The Turkey Myth

The Leave camp have tried to push Turkey's application for EU membership to the fore during their campaign.

The truth is that it is a non-issue for this referendum. Turkey won't join the EU in 2020. Since 1987, 1 of the 35 chapters required for Turkey's EU accession have been closed. It will be a very long time before closing the remaining 34 chapters becomes a possibility.

Also any Eu country can veto turkey joining including US

Cyprus will likely veto turkey's application if ever they meet the criteria as they do not like them for occupying the northern half of their island
 
Because continued investment and growth is such a big risk

Can't help you if you are incapable of reading and understanding the multitude of reasons why you are wrong that have been so clearly given to you?

I'll try one last time..

The investment you talk of is our money but only a small proportion of it .. thats easy to understand!..I'll simplify again.. I am going to invest in you this summer please give me £10.. I will now give you back £3 as an investment in you.. Thanks.

The growth in the EU is declining..

Like I say if you can't understand those 2 simple concepts??....
 
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