I do fear that Europe just like immigrants is a easy target to blame for all the social ills we have. I'd love to know truly what people think we gain from being out of Europe. The biggest crimes are white collar crime and tax evasion and make NHS and benefits tiny in comparison. It's taken 6 years for the HMRC to get 130 million out of Google.......just so happens to be 1 yearly wage for the Managing Director of Google. Do we really think a Tory government unrestrained will reverse this?
Off Topic EU referendum
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Work permits are for people who come from a country outside of the European Economic Area. If we do leave the EU, it doesn't necessarily mean we will come away from the EEA. For example, Norway and Iceland are part of the EEA, but not the EU. I believe the same would apply to ourselves.
Hmm true. But don't we treat those players as 'foreigners?' I'm not sure if we do or not.
From Norway and Iceland? Not that I'm aware of...
Actually, no we don't. They are part of the EEA, so won't require a work permit.
I disagree that this is about a market. If it was just about access to a market then it would be a no-brainer. This is about democracy.
Legislative changes within the EU are almost entirely derived from the European Commission rather than the parliament, effectively rendering the EU parliament a mere talking shop. EU commissioners are appointed by each national government. In the UK's case the commissioner doesn't represent the party supported by the electorate in the EU elections. The electorate do not have any say in who the Commissioners are nor the policies that they put forward.
EU commissioners are also obliged to act in the interests of the EU as a body rather than any national interest, so they represent the EU and not the nation that gave them this position.
The interest of the EU and its legions of bureaucrats is undoubtedly in moving towards a federal Europe, although this goal is not set down in any treaty on which anyone has had a chance to vote.
This is not my definition of democracy I'm afraid.
I do believe that economically we are probably better off in than out, but I don't want to live in a dictatorship, even if I would be wealthier doing so.
I certainly believe that reforms need to be made and that it is wrong that they can override elected nation state governments. However, for me the positives outweigh the negatives, and the 500 million people we have immediate unrestricted trading rights with is a massive positive.
As I said, economically it is a no brainer, but the question is about far more than economics for me. The EU is corrupt and undemocratic, so I will be voting to leave - even though I may well be worse off financially as a result.
One more element is what are the alternatives to the EU? Most of our commonwealth countries do not need us as they have other trading partners, and the rest of the world mainly buys from China. If we go alone it could cost more because of the diminished demand by a small(ish) country.
It could be an unmitigated disaster for us economically..We are not a big league player anymore and need to be part of a trading bloc..
Watching the BBC world news this morning the phrase "protecting our sovereignty and self governance" were being trotted out. Immigration and trading no longer seem to be at the heart of the issue for the 100 or so Tory rebels.
I heard on the TV after Cameron's speech that if we voted to leave, then all trade agreements would be null and void. Britain has some very clever people, do the British people actually believe that because we are not involved in the corrupt club that our top businessmen would be unable to cut deals.....not only with companies in Europe but with being out of the EU, would be able to negotiate with so much more freedom with the rest of the world. I simply see no benefit of ploughing tax payers money into this Union and getting very little back. We are Britain, we don't need France, Germany et al to be a success.
But it is not about companies getting contracts, it is about deals which allow them to compete on a level playing field. Trade deals in the sense of Cameron's speech are between two countries or trading blocks and set the market conditions for business. To have to start from the point of having no trade deals in place would be like Sunderland starting the season by tearing up the contracts of all of its players then tring to sign a whole new team with a 20% mark up on each player.
The EU would be screwed without the UK and they know it. We can negotiate trading terms with the other countries and yes countries within the EU. Its not like they are going to stop buying our stuff or we won't buy theirs. Its a big world Washy, no need for us to be restricted by this cartel. As I said before, we have some very clever people in the UK who can think outside the box when it come to Trade deals with countries or companies. We don't need un elected quango's from the EU to say who and when we can deal with these people. I maintain my stance with this, We are better off without this club, there is way too much self interest and corruption in the EU, we don't need it.Check this out
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...more-than-100billion-of-its-own-spending.html.
Aye - Realised afterI said it. Confusing my ECHR and European Court. That is why I sucked at EU Law.
Funny thing is that as a British citizen living in the EU, I wont be able to vote. I will be forced to apply for a visa/residence permit for France if the UK pulls out, or apply for french a french passport, but I have no right to have a say in the referendum even though I will be one of those most affected by the end result.
Directly affecting Sunderland: Nissan, currently exports cars to the EU from the UK. If UK leaves the EU, they will have to go through additional export processes. In Switzerland, this process costs 6% of the products value. If the same happens to the UK exports (which it will do), what do you think Nissan will do ? They will cut production in Sunderland and open a factory in the EU. Same for any other UK manufacturer exporting to the EU.
Dont think UK will have to honour current deals with the EU ? Do you think the EU have to honour any deals it has with the UK if the UK doesnt honour theirs ? If the EU are feeling vindictive, they could charge additional tarrifs to the UK among other things.
How about the British nationals who have retired abroad ? If they cant get the right to stay in their country of choice if the UK pulls outs, how will the UK support them when they come running back and cant afford to buy or rent a UK property? last estimates # of pensioners living outside of the UK = 900 thousand. with 500k living in the EU.
If the UK stays in the EU, the consequences are clear and easy to see. if the UK leaves, there is no guarantees, no agreement has been put in place, no framework is available. if you vote for leaving the EU, what are you actually voting for ?
When the UK had a vote on whether to join the EU in June 1975, there was already an agreement with the EU drafted, so people knew what the choices and consequences of both options actually were. How can people vote on an issue when the consequences for both options arent clear ?
Remninds me of the French vote against Sarkozy that put Hollonde in power. people voted against Sarko cos they didnt like him, but they didnt realise how **** the alternative was and were too wrapped up in how they didnt like Sarko. Hollande is the least popular president ever - getting as low as 13% of the support last year according to surveys.
This referendum is bollocks, not because I dont think people should have the right to choose or that I am worried what will happen to my situation if the UK does leave, but because 90% people dont actually have ****ing clue as to what they are voting for.
Directly affecting Sunderland: Nissan, currently exports cars to the EU from the UK. If UK leaves the EU, they will have to go through additional export processes. In Switzerland, this process costs 6% of the products value. If the same happens to the UK exports (which it will do), what do you think Nissan will do ? They will cut production in Sunderland and open a factory in the EU. Same for any other UK manufacturer exporting to the EU.
Dont think UK will have to honour current deals with the EU ? Do you think the EU have to honour any deals it has with the UK if the UK doesnt honour theirs ? If the EU are feeling vindictive, they could charge additional tarrifs to the UK among other things.
How about the British nationals who have retired abroad ? If they cant get the right to stay in their country of choice if the UK pulls outs, how will the UK support them when they come running back and cant afford to buy or rent a UK property? last estimates # of pensioners living outside of the UK = 900 thousand. with 500k living in the EU.
If the UK stays in the EU, the consequences are clear and easy to see. if the UK leaves, there is no guarantees, no agreement has been put in place, no framework is available. if you vote for leaving the EU, what are you actually voting for ?
When the UK had a vote on whether to join the EU in June 1975, there was already an agreement with the EU drafted, so people knew what the choices and consequences of both options actually were. How can people vote on an issue when the consequences for both options arent clear ?
Remninds me of the French vote against Sarkozy that put Hollonde in power. people voted against Sarko cos they didnt like him, but they didnt realise how **** the alternative was and were too wrapped up in how they didnt like Sarko. Hollande is the least popular president ever - getting as low as 13% of the support last year according to surveys.
This referendum is bollocks, not because I dont think people should have the right to choose or that I am worried what will happen to my situation if the UK does leave, but because 90% people dont actually have ****ing clue as to what they are voting for.
What constitutes a big league player? We are the 5th largest world economy and a member of the G7. I think all nations will take a pragmatic view of trade and as a country that continually runs a trade deficit we should be able to put in place satisfactory trade deals to protect our exports.
Our position as the fifth largest economy is largely down to the financial sector and little to do with actually producing anything..As has been proved in the recent passed this is not exactly a reliable field. This for me is yet another reason to be part of a larger market community..
Do you realise that you're on the same side as Slimey Toad Cameron regarding this, Whitey
More importantly, you're opposing Boris
Do you realise that you're on the same side as Slimey Toad Cameron regarding this, Whitey
More importantly, you're opposing Boris
Yes...And Corbyn who I also profoundly disagree with on many issues..On the plus side I am opposed to Boris the buffoon and Farage...