As DL has brought up the Bundesliga topic again, I'd also like to refer back to my comments where I said how players don't tend to leave the PL for europe, unless they are dead wood or ageing. (with the exceptions of course). Now, obviously, Bayern are a massive club. they are superior to every other team in Germany and have won the bundesliga far more times than anyone else in the last 15 years or so. As far as I'm concerned, they are up there with the best in the world. - Forget them. I can already hear people saying "Errr what about Dortmund? They've won it the last 2 years running." What I'm trying to get at is, what proven top talent have Dortmund signed? (Top Talent at the time) - They havent. Lewandowski aged 22, was unproven but promising. Błaszczykowski aged 22, was unproven, but promising Gotze aged 17, Subotic aged 20. - again, both unproven but promising. They are currently 2nd in the B'liga and have won it the last 2 seasons, yet their policy is not to disimilar to Tottenhams, and I wouldn't mind betting that there's not a lot of difference in the net spend. But we are a club who are a 4th/5th placed side, where as they are a 2nd/1st placed side. - and it's not like our 1st 11 wouldn't give most clubs a game, is it?! we've some world class talent in our 1st 11. Bayern are the only club who buy top established talent, and not much of it. (Ribery, Robben, Martinez). (but still a bad example due to their youth system. Muller, S'Steiger, Badstuber, Kroos etc). However, I'd go as far as to say that they are the only club who can attract the top talent and i think Dortmunds record proves this,as I've touched on above. As for other clubs, I don't know. I certainly can't remember seeing headlines about Frankfurt or Leverkusen making any massive signings.... That's where the differences are for me. There's great talent who would sign for the top 5 in our league. Maybe it's commercial, but then there must be a reason why we're the most commercial? Probably as each season, the race for places goes down to the wire - Often the title, the CL places, Europa qualification and Relegation. - It's top entertainment. Where as in the leagues abroad, it's the same old names. Not to mention we also boast the fastest, strongest game. - who'd wanna watch that Italian ****e each week?!
Schalke signed the aging Raul...thats about as notable as it gets!, very well put Roo, quite right, BM aside, how many top players looking to move are keen to consider any of the remaining top5 german teams
What percentage of german football fans could name the top 5-6 in the Prem? What percentage of english football fans could name the top 5-6 in the Bundesliga? I couldn't. I could have a guess: Bayern Dortmumd Schalke Leverkusen Bremen But i would put money on that either being completely wrong or in the wrong order (pretty sure on top 2).
3rd - Leverkusen 4th - Frankfurt 5th - Freiburg 6th - Hamburg FYI - Freiburg is where Cisse came from. last season, they finished 12th out of 15. also in addition to your point spurm, other than VDV, how many players can you name who play for those teams?! A side issue... does anyone know what the scenario is with the Bundesliga table? this season it has 18 teams, last season it had 15, 17 the year before that, and 16 the year before that.
According to Wiki your wrong Roo, its been this way since 92. Hertha, Koln and Kaiserslautern finished 16, 17 and 18 last season, all relegated. Mönchengladbach, Frankfurt and St. Pauli finished in the bottom 3 (16-18), Gladbach staying up after winning a playoff.
What table are you looking at?! Last season also had 18 teams. It has had for quite some time. The last time that it had anything other than 18 teams in it was the 1991/92 season, when 2 teams from the former East Germany were added. It went back down to 18 the following season, with 4 relegations and only 2 promotions. Other than that, I think it's always had 18 teams or at least for a very, very long time.
I just went on sky sports: This season: http://www.skysports.com/football/league/0,19540,11880_1213,00.html Last season: http://www.skysports.com/football/league/0,19540,11880_1112,00.html 2010/2011: http://www.skysports.com/football/league/0,19540,11880_1011,00.html 2009/2010: http://www.skysports.com/football/league/0,19540,11880_0910,00.html thought that'd be a pretty reliable source...
Well just clicking on the bottom link suggests that there's some problems with it. "Relegation: 13th, 14th, 15th"? Not 16th, then? Also, there is no team in 13th!
didn't really pay much attention to it, to be honest. just looked at the bottom and what the last number was! Still, thanks to both of you for clearing up the info
Chelsea are the current holders of the CL. Utd have won it once and got to two other finals in the last 5 years. Arsenal made the final six years ago. Most of the English clubs routinely make the semis. Struggling? Only Barcelona have exceeded these performances. Real Madrid have managed two semi finals in 10 years!
No, I don't believe any of our English players could go to Germany and make much of an impact like Mata, Cazorla and Michu have in England, Torres of 5 years ago would fall into that bracket as well. Owen was one of the best strikers in England (if not the best) and got found out as soon as he went to a tougher league, same with Beckham and Henry. Wolfsburg are lower end of the Bundesliga, they'd probably beat 1/3 of our teams with their eyes closed. The quality is so much better, but the PL is obviously more entertaining.
Not sure Owen got found out at Real. Had a top scoring record with them, despite rarely starting. His issue was not being trusted by the manager. Beckham won the league with Real, so not a total disaster surely. Henry was in decline when he went to Barca.
In my opinion: The top four of the PL is weaker now than it was from 04-09, but has gotten stronger every year since 2010. I think 2010 was the nadir in terms of general quality across the PL - Liverpool went off a cliff, Utd were in transition from Ronaldo, Arsenal were ****, and an ageing Chelsea side managed to hit 100 goals against some pretty poor defences whilst being complete ****e in Europe. That was the only time since 2003 we hadn't had an English side in the CL semi finals. One of the worst PL seasons in living memory imo - about seven teams had less than 40 points! 2011 was also quite poor, with only Utd any good. Last season was better, but the Utd and City sides of that year weren't a patch on the Utd side of 07-09. This year Utd have gotten back up to a good standard, but City and Chelsea have been ****e. The rest of the division has been ok - from 5th down the quality is about the same as usual, arguably higher for many sides. But of the supposed 'top sides' only Utd have been any good. That's where we've been weak - the big spenders have totally failed to show up this year. As for comparing us to other leagues, a bit pointless imo. Dortmund and Bayern are doing well for the Bundesliga, but Leverkusen just got beaten home and away in the Europa, and Schalke and Stuttgart are unlikely to go far. Real and Barca are struggling a bit in the CL, and whilst they may make it through they have hardly been outstanding. Malaga and Valencia will do well to get through, and I doubt they'll go much further if they do. I think all you can really say about the top three leagues is that currently there are only two really good Spanish teams, two really good German teams and one really good English team left in Europe. Not really much to base a comparison on - once the next round of CL matches is out of the way we'll probably have a better idea. As for the rest of the league well, if you can get QPR to play Hoffenheim then maybe we'll have an answer. Until then it's all just guesswork as to the respective strength.
Just like Mertesacker and Kagawa have lit the PL up this season? And Ronaldo, Mascherano, Alonso and Pique really struggled to reproduce their PL form in La Liga The fact English players generally struggle abroad says nothing for the quality of the PL, more for the quality of English players.
nice one roo, that is probably a better point than i was trying to make. I can name a few, but not many: Bayern - Mandzukic, Gomez, Lahm, Schweinsteiger, Neuer, Muller, Buyten, Boateng (still there?), Ribbery, Martinez, Robben, Kroos (to be fair, i did watch an entire match of theirs a week ago) Dortmund - Lewandowski, Reus, Surin (loan), Gotze, Subotic(???) Frankfurt - erm, Yeboah? Lol Freiburg - That ain't a real team Hamburg - VDV (disallowed), that chap from Wolves(???), did he go there?
There ya go. Most could name Bayern and Dortmund players, but it'd be a struggle for the "average fan" to name anyone who plays for 3rd and below. (forget my last bit about the league table. sky are having a mare on their website and my question is now completely redundant)
I just looked up Freiburg's squad and I genuinely don't know any of their players. Their manager must be doing well, I guess.
other than VDV and Huntelaar, i don't think I can name 1 other player in Germany, outside of the top 2 sides. - Or to reword that, i can't think of any of the top of my head. Now, I'm not the most knowledgeable of football fans compared to some, but I've got a fair idea, Like most people on here. I think that says a lot about the Bundesliga. - And this is why I get such rage about them being awarded 4 CL places.
