Coronavirus

[PINKIE]

No idea myself.

I do know that the career to these people seems to be the all, and that is a real problem

It's actually one of the areas within the socialism sphere that appeals to me, at least theoretically, in that the idea is the politician is not a careerist who makes a fortune from being a politician.

The Americans have taken that game to a whole new level where every administration uses the offices of gov to make vast personal fortunes

I'll give an example. My local MP is a bloke called Derek Thomas in west Cornwall. It's a area that relies on farming, fishing and tourism and also has a disproportionate representation of deprivation (it was on the EU objective 1 funding scheme for years).

But Derek is a yes man for Boris. One of his loyal numbers he can count on in the voting lobbies. So far he's voted for measures against ending child poverty, for measures to reduce benefits, ending long term secure tenancies and most recently on farming and fishing he voted with the Govt to remove the amendment protecting food standards in the agriculture bill. So he's basically shafted just about all of his constituents.

Perhaps even worse than this is George Eustice, the Environment secretary, who I actually know through his sister who now owns the family farm, has not only shafted the whole rural economy of farming and fishing down here. He has been actively driving these measures.

Our council leader on the other hand, has an active real time handle on housing, farming, fishing, business, children's and adult services, health care provision, transport etc as it's his day job. So he actually understands the real issues that affect local people. He'd do a far better job in Parliament representing his constituents.

 

[O'l Gravy Leg.]

I'll give an example. My local MP is a bloke called Derek Thomas in west Cornwall. It's a area that relies on farming, fishing and tourism and also has a disproportionate representation of deprivation (it was on the EU objective 1 funding scheme for years).

But Derek is a yes man for Boris. One of his loyal numbers he can count on in the voting lobbies. So far he's voted for measures against ending child poverty, for measures to reduce benefits, ending long term secure tenancies and most recently on farming and fishing he voted with the Govt to remove the amendment protecting food standards in the agriculture bill. So he's basically shafted just about all of his constituents.

Perhaps even worse than this is George Eustice, the Environment secretary, who I actually know through his sister who now owns the family farm, has not only shafted the whole rural economy of farming and fishing down here. He has been actively driving these measures.

Our council leader on the other hand, has an active real time handle on housing, farming, fishing, business, children's and adult services, health care provision, transport etc as it's his day job. So he actually understands the real issues that affect local people. He'd do a far better job in Parliament representing his constituents.

That makes sense to my, what I admit is, politically underdeveloped mind.

 

[PINKIE]

That makes sense to my, what I admit is, politically underdeveloped mind.

Well, in a nutshell I think locally elected council members who actually do the hands on job should have more decision making powers.

I guess I'm advocating furthering the devolved assemblies model here.

 

[O'l Gravy Leg.]

Re Conspiracy and honestly what happened with me back in the day

I can say now why I entertained (I never truly believed) in much 911 ****e.
Laziness to fact check
Being "anti imperialist" at the time, it fit my world view
The shreds of truth in it that allowed the adoption of the more completely evidence free parts of the theories
Youtube algorithms funneling me to content that reinforced it

When I think back, youtube would put nothing but those videos in my feed.

 

[Tobes]

Ah, of course, though I am not fond of "denier". They have reasons for why they believe that, and probably what seem to us like ridiculous reasons are why they believe that

There's a lot to be said for trying to understand 'why' someone thinks the way they do. You will find in 99% of cases that when someone believes something ridiculous, there are reasons why they do, and those reasons can be many.

For example, the Vampire panic in parts of Africa 2 years ago, where people were murdered because someone pointed and said "he's a vampire".
We "could" say these people are conspiracy nuts, but the real reason is lack of basic education and prevalence of and acting on basically what is superstition

I am not slating Africans, we were doing the same things with witches, now all of us know witches cannot be real, and in time those places in Africa will know vampires are not real

Having engaged with some of them on SM, the ones I’ve come across have been sold scientifically illiterate BS, and they’ve chosen to believe their source over the demonstrable science for whatever reason. It doesn’t matter what you put to them, they’ll stick with their version. The 5G bollocks seems to be at the heart of some of it, but not all, some actually believe that the whole thing is fictitious and a global conspiracy, a million deaths though, didn’t happen. You can’t do anything with someone who wants to believe that.

HIAG was a full on denier on here btw, until the numbers became such that he could no longer deny it, so he moved on to, it’s all an exaggerated conspiracy by well......the Jews.

 

[O'l Gravy Leg.]

Having engaged with some of them on SM, the ones I’ve come across have been sold scientifically illiterate BS, and they’ve chosen to believe their source over the demonstrable science for whatever reason. It doesn’t matter what you put to them, they’ll stick with their version. The 5G bollocks seems to be at the heart of some of it, but not all, some actually believe that the whole thing is fictitious and a global conspiracy, a million deaths though, didn’t happen. You can’t do anything with someone who wants to believe that.

HIAG was a full on denier on here btw, until the numbers became such that he could no longer deny it, so he moved on to, it’s all an exaggerated conspiracy by well......the Jews.

I've seen that yes, definitely. I think at some point we must wonder how people are coming out of education and falling for these crazy ideas

I'm glad I made my mistakes already, I've already began inoculating my 10 year old in advance to evidence free ideas that are designed to appeal to the uninformed. "Show me the evidence"

The downside of my 911 dabbles is, things I have gotten spot on since, get me slated

In 2015 on here, I called the Hunter Biden Burisma story, 5 ****ing years ago

 

[PINKIE]

Re Conspiracy and honestly what happened with me back in the day

I can say now why I entertained (I never truly believed) in much 911 ****e.
Laziness to fact check
Being "anti imperialist" at the time, it fit my world view
The shreds of truth in it that allowed the adoption of the more completely evidence free parts of the theories
Youtube algorithms funneling me to content that reinforced it

When I think back, youtube would put nothing but those videos in my feed.

In the early days of the internet, there was suddenly this explosion of alternative news, media and opinion. All of a sudden loads of folk were like 'Have you seen this ?' and I think it was quite attractive to the anti-establishment thinking mind to take on board this stuff as it offered an alternative view from the mainstream.

But like you say, there was very little actual fact checking going on. Fast forward to today, where this sort of stuff has literally been monetised and promoted as being as valid, 'alternative facts' Trump infamously said. Or 'facts don't matter' as Aaron Banks the man who helped crash us out of the EU said.

Also, as you mention. The algorithms on SM push people down a rabbit hole where they are bombarded with info that just confirms their biases.

 

[PINKIE]

I've seen that yes, definitely. I think at some point we must wonder how people are coming out of education and falling for these crazy ideas

I'm glad I made my mistakes already, I've already began inoculating my 10 year old in advance to evidence free ideas that are designed to appeal to the uninformed. "Show me the evidence"

The downside of my 911 dabbles is, things I have gotten spot on since, get me slated

In 2015 on here, I called the Hunter Biden Burisma story, 5 ****ing years ago

Part of the problem now is that in response to showing these folk the evidence, they are now wheeling out 'alternative' scientists and doctors to back up their versions of Covid etc. Many of these people have either been totally discredited by the scientific community or at worst don't actually have any credentials at all.

But as we know, sometimes all it takes is a meme for somebody to fall hook, line and sinker.

 

[O'l Gravy Leg.]

In the early days of the internet, there was suddenly this explosion of alternative news, media and opinion. All of a sudden loads of folk were like 'Have you seen this ?' and I think it was quite attractive to the anti-establishment thinking mind to take on board this stuff as it offered an alternative view from the mainstream.

But like you say, there was very little actual fact checking going on. Fast forward to today, where this sort of stuff has literally been monetised and promoted as being as valid, 'alternative facts' Trump infamously said. Or 'facts don't matter' as Aaron Banks the man who helped crash us out of the EU said.

Also, as you mention. The algorithms on SM push people down a rabbit hole where they are bombarded with info that just confirms their biases.

Very true for me, I had only really got into the internet, and Youtube around 2011, good point

 

[O'l Gravy Leg.]

Part of the problem now is that in response to showing these folk the evidence, they are now wheeling out 'alternative' scientists and doctors to back up their versions of Covid etc. Many of these people have either been totally discredited by the scientific community or at worst don't actually have any credentials at all.

But as we know, sometimes all it takes is a meme for somebody to fall hook, line and sinker.

Data.

US CDC 96% of fatal cases had 2 or more comorbitities and were over 75

The conclusion based on that data for me is, if we could do this over (We cant) this is what I would have done
Shut everything down in March for 4 weeks and retooled the NHS to protect the old and sick

Then fully reopened

We cant go back in time though

 

[O'l Gravy Leg.]

WHO estimates 800 million cases globally (two week old estimation)
Deaths 1.3? million

That's what around 0.08% fatality and 90%+ of those had co morbities and were very old

Of course that means **** all to someone who loses a family member, yet we cant manage the world from the perspective of an individual who lost a loved one.

 

[PINKIE]

Very true for me, I had only really got into the internet, and Youtube around 2011, good point

I was listening to an interesting prog on Radio 4 the other day about how computer science has been slow to develop ethical protocols for how information is disseminated. They were arguing that 2015/16 should have been a massive wake up call, with Russian interference in the US election, bots, Facebook data mining, Cambridge analytica, illegal funding into the leave EU campaign etc and how damaging it can be for democracy.

They were arguing that like most of the other sciences, it will probably catch up with a rigorous framework for validating its 'product'. So as to root out the bullshit as it were.

 

[PINKIE]

WHO estimates 800 million cases globally (two week old estimation)
Deaths 1.3? million

That's what around 0.08% fatality and 90%+ of those had co morbities and were very old

Of course that means **** all to someone who loses a family member, yet we cant manage the world from the perspective of an individual who lost a loved one.

Part of the issue is that it's not just Covid deaths though. Vast swathes of sickness puts an unmanageable stress on health services, with other parts of the service suffering and causing deaths from other conditions that either go undetected or unmanaged, as well as people not being able to work etc and the strain it puts on the economy (which I know has been decimated due to lockdowns anyway) plus the emerging issue of 'Long Covid'.

Ironically for the anti-vaxxers/protect my liberty crew, I think a vaccine is going to be the thing that eventually releases societies around the world from this stop / start lockdown cycle.

 

[O'l Gravy Leg.]

Part of the issue is that it's not just Covid deaths though. Vast swathes of sickness puts an unmanageable stress on health services, with other parts of the service suffering and causing deaths from other conditions that either go undetected or unmanaged, as well as people not being able to work etc and the strain it puts on the economy (which I know has been decimated due to lockdowns anyway) plus the emerging issue of 'Long Covid'.

Ironically for the anti-vaxxers/protect my liberty crew, I think a vaccine is going to be the thing that eventually releases societies around the world from this stop / start lockdown cycle.

Yeah it's definitely not another flu. The old and sick can brush off flu mostly, as most cases are not severe, but COVID is a different beast alright.

Funny you say anti vaxxer, the Govnr' of New York has gone on the media recently and said he doesn't trust a CDC FDA COVID vaccine, that guy Cuomo, and that is one of the most irresponsible things I have seen in a long time from a public official

 

[Tobes]

WHO estimates 800 million cases globally (two week old estimation)
Deaths 1.3? million

That's what around 0.08% fatality and 90%+ of those had co morbities and were very old

Of course that means **** all to someone who loses a family member, yet we cant manage the world from the perspective of an individual who lost a loved one.

It’s about balance and minimising risk imo.

The mantra of some is just shield the elderly and vulnerable and every one else should just crack on as normal.

Only ask them how that works on a practical level and they’ll go blank. As what about their kids? Their family? Carers? NHS workers? And how do they practically go about getting what they need? As in the U.K. nearly 15 million are either over 65 or living in a household with someone over 65. That doesn’t even include the vulnerable who are under 65. It’s impossible to let the thing rip and simultaneously protect those people.

So then you’re getting into the area of deciding who’s life is worth saving and you’re literally putting a value on life, is an elderly persons life worth any less than a millennial? This is where the right wing view of the economy comes first clashes with actual humanity and what Society actually is.

Somewhere in between lies the balance, but it relies on people following the guidance and social distancing, handwashing, wearing masks in confined places etc. Only we’ve got plenty over here at the minute who for a combination of reasons are refusing to do that, as their heads are firmly ensconced up their ring pieces.

 

[O'l Gravy Leg.]

It’s about balance and minimising risk imo.

The mantra of some is just shield the elderly and vulnerable and every one else should just crack on as normal.

Only ask them how that works on a practical level and they’ll go blank. As what about their kids? Their family? Carers? NHS workers? And how do they practically go about getting what they need? As in the U.K. nearly 15 million are either over 65 or living in a household with someone over 65. That doesn’t even include the vulnerable who are under 65. It’s impossible to let the thing rip and simultaneously protect those people.

So then you’re getting into the area of deciding who’s life is worth saving and you’re my literally putting a value on life, is an elderly persons life worth any less than a millennial? This is where the right wing view of the economy comes first clashes with actual humanity and what Society actually is.

Somewhere in between lies the balance, but it relies on people following the guidance and social distancing, handwashing, wearing masks in confined places etc. Only we’ve got plenty over here at the minute who for a combination of reasons are refusing to do that, as their heads are firmly ensconced up their ring pieces.

All valid points, and questions, and questions that needed to be asked in Feb imo.

The voluntary social distancing worked extremely well here, because you are not sacrificing anything really anyway.

It seems the aversion to "being told what to do" varies from country to country and is quite strong in some countries.

 

[PINKIE]

Yeah it's definitely not another flu. The old and sick can brush off flu mostly, as most cases are not severe, but COVID is a different beast alright.

Funny you say anti vaxxer, the Govnr' of New York has gone on the media recently and said he doesn't trust a CDC FDA COVID vaccine, that guy Cuomo, and that is one of the most irresponsible things I have seen in a long time from a public official

I think there's an issue in the way that the FDA has been massively politicised under Trump, and there is a danger that he'll use them to push through a vaccine simply to expedite the opening up of the economy again. It's definitely one that needs scrutiny and vigilance.

Although recently the FDA have been at pains to reiterate their science first stance. As they should

 

[PINKIE]

It’s about balance and minimising risk imo.

The mantra of some is just shield the elderly and vulnerable and every one else should just crack on as normal.

Only ask them how that works on a practical level and they’ll go blank. As what about their kids? Their family? Carers? NHS workers? And how do they practically go about getting what they need? As in the U.K. nearly 15 million are either over 65 or living in a household with someone over 65. That doesn’t even include the vulnerable who are under 65. It’s impossible to let the thing rip and simultaneously protect those people.

So then you’re getting into the area of deciding who’s life is worth saving and you’re literally putting a value on life, is an elderly persons life worth any less than a millennial? This is where the right wing view of the economy comes first clashes with actual humanity and what Society actually is.

Somewhere in between lies the balance, but it relies on people following the guidance and social distancing, handwashing, wearing masks in confined places etc. Only we’ve got plenty over here at the minute who for a combination of reasons are refusing to do that, as their heads are firmly ensconced up their ring pieces.

I saw a news clip the other day of a young woman sitting at a restaurant drinking a glass of wine, telling the reporter how the old and vulnerable should be 'shielded' whilst the healthy were allowed to get on with their lives as normal. It seemed not to occur to her that whilst she sat there enjoying her glass of wine, that would mean 24/7 isolation for somebody else to enable her to enjoy that privilege.

 

[Tobes]

All valid points, and questions, and questions that needed to be asked in Feb imo.

The voluntary social distancing worked extremely well here, because you are not sacrificing anything really anyway.

It seems the aversion to "being told what to do" varies from country to country and is quite strong in some countries.

Our PM swerved 5 COBRA meetings on the virus up until March. We had all the warnings and yet failed to act or come up with a considered strategy that we could have based on the countries who’d already seen the worst of the curve.

As for the ‘not being told what to do’ it’s an English speciality ffs. We’ve got millions of them.

 

[O'l Gravy Leg.]

Our PM swerved 5 COBRA meetings on the virus up until March. We had all the warnings and yet failed to act or come up with a considered strategy that we could have based on the countries who’d already seen the worst of the curve.

As for the ‘not being told what to do’ it’s an English speciality ffs. We’ve got millions of them.

They did, they screwed the pooch, and they know it, which makes poor bedding for the ****in nest they made themselves for going forward.

Every government almost in the world bar 3 or 4 completely bungled this, and so did the WHO with its flip flops on preventative measures.


As for that stubbornness, old Sisu has a saying
"Your strongest attribute can be your biggest weakness" - Sisu - now.

That stubbornness to not be cowed was what stopped the Krauts in the 40s, and that stubbornness is a liability if a deadly virus breaks out.