Off Topic Coronavirus

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Endemic... that is a whole world problem, we cannot do anything on our own

We could have done a lot more to protect ourselves in the first instance and a lot more to lead and show other countries

1`We should have shut our borders IMMEDIATELY, like a few other countries did (Australia/NZ) and I mean shut them CLOSED.
2. We should have traced and traced RELIGIOUSLY, and positive people should have been quarantined.
(We as an island country had such an opportunity to do that


The vaccine program could have continued and rolled out as it was ....we would have had so many less deaths, and so much less on at least our internal economy.

We missed a huge opportunity.
Covid would always become endemic, after all its benign cousin the common cold is, but we could have done so so much more to lead, to prevent our terrible death toll....and to protect our economy.

We have had all these arguments before

I have 99 problems with this government (but the vaccine roll out is not one)

So as I thought, you used the report on an endemic to repeat all of your past criticism of the Tories, some of which I agree with.
Now you say there was nothing we could do to prevent an endemic, completely contradicting yourself.
To see far worse handling of covid, see India!!
 
I wonder what it is that makes Scandinavians, especially Norwegians, so prone to developing these CVSTs versus other populations? And why such a high proportion of them die compared to elsewhere?

Any side effect that happens in less than 1 in 10,000 doses is classified as ‘very rare’, no one hid information about something that was too unusual to pick up in a trial, and actually much less common than the same condition caused by the virus itself.

To be honest Ossie, Norway isn’t the first country that first springs to mind on this, as you say it’s death rate is so low that using any vaccine might be considered too risky for it. It’s the larger countries to your south, especially France and Germany, that I’m thinking of. It’s been proven in the U.K. and Israel etc that vaccination both massively cuts deaths and now transmission of the virus. With our fat and unhealthy population and earlier mismanagement of the pandemic the AZ vaccine has enabled us to save thousands of lives, and it would have been the same in other countries where the virus was/is out of control. The AZ vaccine is much more effective for longer than the Pfizer one on a single dose, which has enabled us to delay second doses and get just about half of the population vaccinated, with now 15% fully vaccinated. This was a fluke, we didn’t know it would work when the decision was made and it made me deeply uncomfortable. Had the Pfizer vaccine been available in quantities to enable everyone to get jabbed just as quickly perhaps it would have been preferable for younger people to have got it (as they now are) just for confidence, not for efficacy reasons. The U.K., correctly, prioritised speed and security of supply (as far as possible in these unique circumstances) over price. The EU did a magnificent job of negotiating on price (except with Moderna) and, because they do trade deals with other countries rather than commercial deals with companies, didn’t understand that there are trade offs involved in this. Once their foolishness had been exposed their bizarre response was to moan about supply while simultaneously slagging off efficacy and safety, with the result that people are scared ****less about very little and are more scared of the vaccine than the virus. It will be easily demonstrable that this has cost lives, even with the supply issues the unused doses count into the millions, each one capable of protecting the individual and the population as a whole.

So the EUs contribution was not to prevent export? And they are entitled to prevent export, but it’s nasty if doses aren’t exported from the U.K. or US? Bring out the flags. There are limited numbers of places in the entire world where the vaccines are made, US, EU, India, Russia and China mostly. At the moment the U.K. manufacturing capacity is 1-2 million doses a week within the country, it’s a drop in the ocean, not enough to meet our own demand. The Pfizer plant in Belgium is designed to deliver to seventy different countries, including the EU countries and the U.K. it’s just a coincidence that it’s in the EU (though would be more understandable if it was in Ireland because of the tax breaks, which that famous Irishman Joe Biden is trying to end), if it was in the U.K. and exporting presumably that would be a win for Johnson.

Pfizer don’t think so much of the amazing rules and regulations of the EU helping them to export.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pfizer-vaccine-production-eu-covid-b1825355.html
No, the EU's contribution was to allow Pfizer/Biontech to operate/manufacture in the EU so they can export to a market of 450m without tariffs/customs declarations. If Prizer arn't happy with that, they can always go manufacture in Peru or Vietnam or somewhere cheaper with less regulations. Will they, no chance. Why? Because they want direct access to the EU market of 450m people. The many Pharma companies in Ireland are there for two reasons, lower taxes and direct access to a market of 450m people.

Who mentioned anything being nasty? The US and UK have their own policy. The fact that neither country are exporting to countries like NZ, Oz, Canada etc means the only way those countries can get supply of quality vaccine is to buy from Pfizer/Biontech. The alternative is to go Chinese or Russian. I am saying the people from those countries that have been vaccinated with a product manufactured and exported from the EU should be happy that at least somebody is helping them.

The Pfizer plant in Belgium are subject to EU law's and controls on vaccines and the EU can at any stage halt exports to any country who has not reciprocated with their vaccine exports. That is the rule Von Der Leyen has brought in. You can disagree with it if you wish but as you know, rules are rules and that particular rule gives her the power to halt exports to any country at any stage.

The rest of your post Stan on tax laws and Biden belong in the Politics thread except to say that Ireland won the appeal on the Apple tax ruling. If the EU can't overturn Ireland's own tax laws, I doubt any President of the U.S. (Irish, French, Chinese, Japanese or *****lian) can. He can try and good luck to him for trying. It is a noble cause to raise more taxes so a good socialist President can spend those tax Dollars as he sees fit. Time will tell if he succeeds and whether 40m Irish/American voters and huge chunks of American business interests who have their European base here will forgive him if he damages their business and the Irish economy.
 
I wonder what it is that makes Scandinavians, especially Norwegians, so prone to developing these CVSTs versus other populations? And why such a high proportion of them die compared to elsewhere?

Any side effect that happens in less than 1 in 10,000 doses is classified as ‘very rare’, no one hid information about something that was too unusual to pick up in a trial, and actually much less common than the same condition caused by the virus itself.

To be honest Ossie, Norway isn’t the first country that first springs to mind on this, as you say it’s death rate is so low that using any vaccine might be considered too risky for it. It’s the larger countries to your south, especially France and Germany, that I’m thinking of. It’s been proven in the U.K. and Israel etc that vaccination both massively cuts deaths and now transmission of the virus. With our fat and unhealthy population and earlier mismanagement of the pandemic the AZ vaccine has enabled us to save thousands of lives, and it would have been the same in other countries where the virus was/is out of control. The AZ vaccine is much more effective for longer than the Pfizer one on a single dose, which has enabled us to delay second doses and get just about half of the population vaccinated, with now 15% fully vaccinated. This was a fluke, we didn’t know it would work when the decision was made and it made me deeply uncomfortable. Had the Pfizer vaccine been available in quantities to enable everyone to get jabbed just as quickly perhaps it would have been preferable for younger people to have got it (as they now are) just for confidence, not for efficacy reasons. The U.K., correctly, prioritised speed and security of supply (as far as possible in these unique circumstances) over price. The EU did a magnificent job of negotiating on price (except with Moderna) and, because they do trade deals with other countries rather than commercial deals with companies, didn’t understand that there are trade offs involved in this. Once their foolishness had been exposed their bizarre response was to moan about supply while simultaneously slagging off efficacy and safety, with the result that people are scared ****less about very little and are more scared of the vaccine than the virus. It will be easily demonstrable that this has cost lives, even with the supply issues the unused doses count into the millions, each one capable of protecting the individual and the population as a whole.

So the EUs contribution was not to prevent export? And they are entitled to prevent export, but it’s nasty if doses aren’t exported from the U.K. or US? Bring out the flags. There are limited numbers of places in the entire world where the vaccines are made, US, EU, India, Russia and China mostly. At the moment the U.K. manufacturing capacity is 1-2 million doses a week within the country, it’s a drop in the ocean, not enough to meet our own demand. The Pfizer plant in Belgium is designed to deliver to seventy different countries, including the EU countries and the U.K. it’s just a coincidence that it’s in the EU (though would be more understandable if it was in Ireland because of the tax breaks, which that famous Irishman Joe Biden is trying to end), if it was in the U.K. and exporting presumably that would be a win for Johnson.

Pfizer don’t think so much of the amazing rules and regulations of the EU helping them to export.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pfizer-vaccine-production-eu-covid-b1825355.html

I have actually heard tell that an American Doctor called Scandinavia blood clot central, pre-Covid. Maybe he had a point. if I remember right Germany also had quite a lot of serious CVST's cases including a number of deaths after taking the AZ vaccine. The EU were hardly slagging off AZ for safety, it took them many many weeks to recognise a connection between the CVST's and the AZ vaccine, same as the UK who also delayed admitting to most of their cases until right up to their presentation and cutting it for the under 30's.

Of course vaccination is beneficial where there are high numbers of Covid serious sickness and deaths like in the UK, US, India, much of Europe, and much of Latin America. US real life research has shown the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines are showing not only very good efficiency in eliminating serious Covis sickness and death, but is also doing well in reducing Covid infections altogether. They look to be the vaccines of choice if you are so lucky to get them. I read too the EU is on the point of agreeing a huge supply of the Pfizer vaccine, enough for the whole EU population from 2021 to 2023.
 
I had my first jab a week ago and am scheduled for my second in early August. And although I have been a beneficiary of vaccines from EU with a possibility that by August Mr Biden may have vaccinated all those in his country that will take the vaccine so I could conceivably benefit from a US produced vaccine. But I do believe that the countries that have been less foolish than my own have a duty to attend to their own populations first and look after the rest of the world when they get around to it

It is not the fault of Mr Modi. Mr Johnson or Mr Biden that Canada had 20 years of successive governments that systematically removed any capability to produce
vaccines. We have not supported those industries with our tax dollars and our PM has dithered more that even I, not a supporter of his, thought he would/could. I am right chuffed to have the vaccine doing it's thing but I probably should have declined getting it for a while
 
I have actually heard tell that an American Doctor called Scandinavia blood clot central, pre-Covid. Maybe he had a point. if I remember right Germany also had quite a lot of serious CVST's cases including a number of deaths after taking the AZ vaccine. The EU were hardly slagging off AZ for safety, it took them many many weeks to recognise a connection between the CVST's and the AZ vaccine, same as the UK who also delayed admitting to most of their cases until right up to their presentation and cutting it for the under 30's.

Of course vaccination is beneficial where there are high numbers of Covid serious sickness and deaths like in the UK, US, India, much of Europe, and much of Latin America. US real life research has shown the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines are showing not only very good efficiency in eliminating serious Covis sickness and death, but is also doing well in reducing Covid infections altogether. They look to be the vaccines of choice if you are so lucky to get them. I read too the EU is on the point of agreeing a huge supply of the Pfizer vaccine, enough for the whole EU population from 2021 to 2023.

Yes they have Oslo.

They have done an AZ type deal. 180 billion Pfizer vaccines exclusively and only for the EU. This contract is to begin delivery from next Autumn/Winter.
 
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I had my first jab a week ago and am scheduled for my second in early August. And although I have been a beneficiary of vaccines from EU with a possibility that by August Mr Biden may have vaccinated all those in his country that will take the vaccine so I could conceivably benefit from a US produced vaccine. But I do believe that the countries that have been less foolish than my own have a duty to attend to their own populations first and look after the rest of the world when they get around to it

It is not the fault of Mr Modi. Mr Johnson or Mr Biden that Canada had 20 years of successive governments that systematically removed any capability to produce
vaccines. We have not supported those industries with our tax dollars and our PM has dithered more that even I, not a supporter of his, thought he would/could. I am right chuffed to have the vaccine doing it's thing but I probably should have declined getting it for a while
Why should you have declined your vaccine for a while, Maple?

I thought you were anxious to get it?
 
I have actually heard tell that an American Doctor called Scandinavia blood clot central, pre-Covid. Maybe he had a point. if I remember right Germany also had quite a lot of serious CVST's cases including a number of deaths after taking the AZ vaccine. The EU were hardly slagging off AZ for safety, it took them many many weeks to recognise a connection between the CVST's and the AZ vaccine, same as the UK who also delayed admitting to most of their cases until right up to their presentation and cutting it for the under 30's.

Of course vaccination is beneficial where there are high numbers of Covid serious sickness and deaths like in the UK, US, India, much of Europe, and much of Latin America. US real life research has shown the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines are showing not only very good efficiency in eliminating serious Covis sickness and death, but is also doing well in reducing Covid infections altogether. They look to be the vaccines of choice if you are so lucky to get them. I read too the EU is on the point of agreeing a huge supply of the Pfizer vaccine, enough for the whole EU population from 2021 to 2023.
Does that include Norway?
 
So as I thought, you used the report on an endemic to repeat all of your past criticism of the Tories, some of which I agree with.
Now you say there was nothing we could do to prevent an endemic, completely contradicting yourself.
To see far worse handling of covid, see India!!
Nothing we could to do prevent an endemic in the world....but like NZ or Australia we could have stood aside...and not have lost 130,000 lives


I have not contradicted myself at all Col, please just understand what I said.

It has become an endemic, if we had actually closed our borders and trace and tracked effectively we did not need to lose 130,000 lives.
 
Nothing we could to do prevent an endemic in the world....but like NZ or Australia we could have stood aside...and not have lost 130,000 lives


I have not contradicted myself at all Col, please just understand what I said.

It has become an endemic, if we had actually closed our borders and trace and tracked effectively we did not need to lose 130,000 lives.

You did. Read again what you said.

Making the mistakes you continuously point out wouldn't have made any difference to an endemic. You said the UK could have done more to prevent it.

Anyway, whatever.
 
[QUOTE="qprbeth, post: 14833736, member: I am not sure we could ever have prevented this, but the UK have not really done much to try[/QUOTE]

When I asked what we could have done, you said it couldn't have been prevented.

This is a contradiction.
This is like pulling teeth.
 
Didn't the UK supply 700000 doses to Australia
Apparently China has had less than 5000 deaths from their virus
Just googled it and you are right according to the Sydney Morning Herald.

Apparently it was kept hush hush in order not to upset UK public opinion.
 
[QUOTE="qprbeth, post: 14833736, member: I am not sure we could ever have prevented this, but the UK have not really done much to try

When I asked what we could have done, you said it couldn't have been prevented.

This is a contradiction.
This is like pulling teeth.[/QUOTE]

Col you will never make a dentist!


What part of "I'm not sure we could have prevented this " and " we could not have prevented this"...is really actually contradictory?


You are finding deep subtlety of meanings in my words that I am really not capable of.

We the UK... could not prevent an endemic in the big wide world....we can only do our bit ...and stop people dying in our own country...

Obviously, we could start by sending our surplus vaccines to India and other countries, that might help, but my understanding is we don't currently have any surplus...but that is a completely different argument....which I am sure we will get onto.
 
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The pedant in me wants to question the use of the word endemic as if it's a localised pandemic - ie epidemic.

Where's @Uber_Hoop?


So this is a good definition....

But what’s the difference between epidemic and endemic? An epidemic is actively spreading; new cases of the disease substantially exceed what is expected. More broadly, it’s used to describe any problem that’s out of control, such as “the opioid epidemic.” An epidemic is often localized to a region, but the number of those infected in that region is significantly higher than normal. For example, when COVID-19 was limited to Wuhan, China, it was an epidemic. The geographical spread turned it into a pandemic.

Endemics, on the other hand, are a constant presence in a specific location. Malaria is endemic to parts of Africa. Ice is endemic to Antarctica.



So what Dr Farrar was saying... in the future Covid 19 will be with us, every where, all the time, just as flu and the common cold are.

We will learn to live with it by general infection / immunity or vaccination or by a genetic selection whereby the very susceptible people die, leaving the less genetically susceptible people to thrive
 
So this is a good definition....

But what’s the difference between epidemic and endemic? An epidemic is actively spreading; new cases of the disease substantially exceed what is expected. More broadly, it’s used to describe any problem that’s out of control, such as “the opioid epidemic.” An epidemic is often localized to a region, but the number of those infected in that region is significantly higher than normal. For example, when COVID-19 was limited to Wuhan, China, it was an epidemic. The geographical spread turned it into a pandemic.

Endemics, on the other hand, are a constant presence in a specific location. Malaria is endemic to parts of Africa. Ice is endemic to Antarctica.



So what Dr Farrar was saying... in the future Covid 19 will be with us, every where, all the time, just as flu and the common cold are.

We will learn to live with it by general infection / immunity or vaccination or by a genetic selection whereby the very susceptible people die, leaving the less genetically susceptible people to thrive

Exactly. The disease has become endemic. It is not 'an' endemic.

Sorry.

Where's @Uber_Hoop?
 
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