This problem is not a medical one but rather a societal one. Epidemics, famine and war have been constant companions of human history - the only exception to that has been in the Western World since the 1960s, these things now happen somewhere else. So we have been living in a kind of security bubble since then and that is the main problem - we don't know how to react. The other major problem is the development of free market ideology (and the countries most hit by this pandemic are those where this ideology is strongest) - which means that countries are not able to channel all their potential resources in the same way as was done for the national war effort in 1939 - in a 'privatized World' everything works differently. Vaccination has become the 'miracle' which is supposed to save us - but this 'miracle' (in the case of the BionTech variant) which was developed in Germany is not produced there (thanks to the free market) and so the very country which developed it doesn't have enough. They solved these things without vaccination in the past - otherwise we would not be here now. What is needed is a 3 week corona holiday - the mother of all lockdowns, in which nobody goes beyond their own doorstep without wearing both a reliable mask and being in possession of a reliable negative test result. At the same time the state must ensure that all people are tested during that period and are only allowed out if found negative, that the supply of groceries, and other essentials, is taken over by the Army if necessary, and that a universal basic income is paid to every citizen over that period. In short a very 'Chinese' sounding approach but one which is short and, ultimately, cheaper than paying for one soft lockdown after the other.
Off Topic Coronavirus
- Thread starter Sooperhoop
- Start date
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Just a side question here Stan - if you want to build up herd immunity is it not more practical to vaccinate those who are out and about spreading the disease ie. those of working age first rather than concentrating on the vulnerable.
If you have an infinite supply of vaccine and capacity to deliver it quickly, and all of these people continue to follow the social distancing guidelines etc, perhaps. But herd immunity is not the immediate aim in the UK, protecting the NHS is, so vaccinating those most likely to need a hospital bed makes more sense to me.
Long term herd immunity with this type of virus looks very difficult to achieve to me. Your 3 week lockdown is a brake, not a cure, unless you ban all travel for much longer yo prevent new infections entering the country or community depending on how you do it. That is why we hear, from time to time, of another few million Chinese locked into their homes. It hasn’t gone away.
Exactly. To be fair the Government message yesterday was measured and realistic. The Press coverage on the other hand across the board was shamefully inaccurate. It is well known that the lockdown and anxiety experienced by all of us except of course the conspiracy theorists has led to some decline in mental health. The Press reports that but does not see that they also have a responsibility to do something about it instead f going for sensational headlines to sell.So it’s a case of looking at the shock/horror emotive headlines of it being 30% more deadly.....
Or being logical and understanding it’s only .3% more deadly in real terms.
Phew.......at least I wasn’t missing anything.
Just going to have a banana......I’ll dispose of the skin carefully
On the other hand I have heard many, many experts say that it will be fine to delay it.
I presume the problem is that all opinions are based in knowledge and experience, but there's no absolute evidence.
It's a tough one and certainly not a question to find answers to on social media.
I think I'd be happier if they reduced the gap to 6 weeks as is being suggested.
Made even worse when the so called experts cannot agree......it’s difficult to know who to trust.
I've been saying that since day one mate.
Who to believe.
Plus, although a lot of mistakes have been made, the government has been trying to square a circle since the outset, balancing health, the NHS and the economy.
I also think it's been a perfect storm with the pandemic coinciding with the worst set of politicians of all pursations, both here and in the US for generations.
Over 478,000 first dose vaccinations yesterday.....impressive.
If this is the way we are going then can’t knock it so far. Looking forward to seeing the second dose figures go up
If this is the way we are going then can’t knock it so far. Looking forward to seeing the second dose figures go up
Here’s an interesting one for you, and possibly Beth. Anecdotal evidence that I’ve heard from two sources - a friend who’s daughter was affected (US) and my medic today, who has heard it from a few healthcare colleagues. Apparently some people who have already had COVID have a really strong, but temporary (next day/36 hours) reaction to vaccination - aches, pains, temperature etc. My consultant reckons that this is actually antibodies really kicking in, and that people who have this response probably don’t need the second shot, because the first one acts as a booster to their already primed system.
Great numbers for jabs.
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Well speaking from my experience.......I’m pretty certain that I got COVID before I had the jab. I was working the weekend before, and can almost certainly narrow it down to one particular patient who did not put a mask on straight away, who was COVID positive and was coughing in my direction while I took his BP (my fault entirely).
Looking back on it, I might of had a slight cough the night before/morning of my vaccine on the Wednesday but to be honest, didn’t think too much of it.
After the vaccine, my symptoms were exactly as you say....very achy all over, temperature up to about 38 and arm hurt a lot......felt quite rough for at least 48-72 hours and tested positive on the Friday (after a negative on the Thursday)
All seems to fit in with what you are saying.......would be interesting to find out my antibody count.
I'm fairly sure I had Covid back in April.
I had my first vaccination yesterday (clinically vulnerable, not because of age). Today, I feel tired, lethargic, slight headache and generally a bit unwell. Made worse by the result against Derby.
From the Astra Zeneca leaflet I was given, these are some of the side effects listed.
The wife is booked in for her vaccine next week prior to her return to work - she's quite nervous as to how her immune system will react. Not yet sure whether it'll be AZ or Pfizer, but she's indicated she'd rather the AZ if there's a choice
We'll have to add that to the never-ending and expanding list of Covid symptoms, severe pain in the arse losing to the granny shagger...
Listed side effects which may reassure Mrs Steel:
Cond injection
If you forget to go back at the scheduled time, ask your doctor pharmacist or nurse for advice. It is important that you return of your second injection of COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca
4. Possible side effects
Like all medicines, this vaccine can cause side effects,
although not everybody gets them. In clinical studies with the vaccine, most side effects were mild to moderate in nature and resolved within a few days with some still present a week after vaccination side effects such as pain and/or fever are troublesome
medicines containing paracetamol can be taken
Side effects that occurred during clinical trials with COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca were as follows:
Very common may affect more than 1 in 10 people) • tenderness, pain, warmth, redness, itching, swelling or bruising where the injection is given
generally feeling unwell
feeling tired (fatigue) chills or feeling feverish
• feeling sick (nausea) joint pain or muscle ache
Common (may affect up to 1 in 10 people) • a lump at the injection site
fever
• being sick (vomiting)
• flu-like symptoms, such as high temperature, sore throat, runny
nose, cough and chills
Uncommon (may affect up to 1 in 100 people)
• feeling dizzy • decreased appetite
• abdominal pain
• enlarged lymph nodes
• excessive sweating, itchy skin or rash In clinical trials there were very rare reports of events associated
with inflammation of the nervous system, which may cause numbness, pins and needles, and/or loss of feeling. However, it is not confirmed whether these events were due to the vaccine. If you notice any side effects not mentioned in this leaflet, please
inform your doctor, pharmacist or nurse.
Reporting of side effects
If you get any side effects, talk to your doctor, pharmacist or nurse. This includes any possible side effects not listed in the leaflet.
If you are concerned about a side-effect it can be reported directly via the Coronavirus Yellow Card reporting site https://coronavirus-yellowcard.mhra gov.uk/ or search for MHRA Yellow Card in the Google Play or Apple App Store and include the vaccine brand and batch/Lot number if available. By reporting side effects you can help provide more information onthe safety of this vaccine
My sister has had two of the Pfizer vaccine's. The first one was given on January 1st, the second on January 22nd.
I missed the Johnson briefing and only saw the news after. The way they reported it was like the Black Death had hit us? This morning I then watched the briefing on the Parliament channel and will agree it was measured and honest. I have said for some time now that the media are responsible for mixed messaging and confusion. They either scare the s22t out of people or ask the most stupid questions when interviewing MP's. There is one doctor on SkyNews that I enjoy listening to (sadly I keep forgetting his name). He comes across as calm , honest and without all the baggage.
Nearly half a million people have had two doses. I have no idea what criteria they are using, if any, to decide who gets two. Your sister is of course very vulnerable indeed.
Might bite us in the arse in time to come but lockdowns can be done properly if the will is there
Covid-19: 'More deadly' UK variant claim played down by scientists
2 hours ago
Scientists say signs a new coronavirus variant is more deadly than the earlier version should not be a "game changer" in the UK's response to the pandemic.
One expert says it's too early to draw conclusions on the UK variant because information is based on a small amount of data. (file pic) Photo: AFP
UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson said yesterday there is "some evidence" the variant may be associated with "a higher degree of mortality".
But the co-author of the study the PM was referring to said the variant's deadliness remained an "open question".
Another adviser said he was surprised Johnson had shared the findings when the data was "not particularly strong".
A third top medic said it was "too early" to be "absolutely clear".
At a Downing Street coronavirus news conference, the prime minister said: "In addition to spreading more quickly, it also now appears that there is some evidence that the new variant - the variant that was first identified in London and the South East - may be associated with a higher degree of mortality."
Speaking alongside the PM, the government's chief scientific adviser Sir Patrick Vallance said there was "a lot of uncertainty around these numbers" but that early evidence suggested the variant could be about 30 percent more deadly.
For example, Sir Patrick said if 1000 men in their 60s were infected with the old variant, roughly 10 of them would be expected to die - but this rises to about 13 with the new variant.
Sir Patrick Vallance says early evidence suggests the variant could be about 30 percent more deadly. Photo: AFP
The announcement followed a briefing by scientists on the government's New and Emerging Respiratory Virus Threats Advisory Group (Nervtag) which concluded there was a "realistic possibility" that the variant was associated with an increased risk of death.
But one of the briefing's co-authors, Prof Graham Medley, told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "The question about whether it is more dangerous in terms of mortality I think is still open.
"In terms of making the situation worse it is not a game changer. It is a very bad thing that is slightly worse," added Prof Medley, who is a professor of infectious disease modelling at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine.
Another 1348 deaths within 28 days of a positive coronavirus test were reported in the UK on Saturday, in addition to 33,552 new infections, according to the government's coronavirus dashboard.
Announcement defended
Nervtag's chairman Prof Peter Horby defended the government's "transparency" in making the announcement.
"Scientists are looking at the possibility that there is increased severity... and after a week of looking at the data we came to the conclusion that it was a realistic possibility," he said.
"We need to be transparent about that. If we were not telling people about this we would be accused of covering it up."
But Dr Mike Tildesley, a member of Sage subgroup the Scientific Pandemic Influenza Group on Modelling (Spi-M), agreed it was too early to draw "strong conclusions" as the suggested increased mortality rates were based on "a relatively small amount of data".
He told BBC Breakfast he was "actually quite surprised" Johnson had made the early findings public rather than monitoring the data "for a week or two more".
"I just worry that where we report things pre-emptively where the data are not really particularly strong," Dr Tildesley added.
Public Health England medical director Dr Yvonne Doyle also said it was not "absolutely clear" the new variant was more deadly than the original.
"There is some evidence, but it is very early evidence. It is small numbers of cases and it is far too early to say," she told the Today programme.
Meanwhile, senior doctors are calling on England's chief medical officer to cut the gap between the first and second doses of the Pfizer-BioNTech Covid-19 vaccine.
The British Medical Association told Prof Chris Whitty an extension to the maximum gap between jab from three weeks to 12 weeks, to get the first dose to more people, was "difficult to justify".
2 hours ago
Scientists say signs a new coronavirus variant is more deadly than the earlier version should not be a "game changer" in the UK's response to the pandemic.
You must log in or register to see images
One expert says it's too early to draw conclusions on the UK variant because information is based on a small amount of data. (file pic) Photo: AFP
UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson said yesterday there is "some evidence" the variant may be associated with "a higher degree of mortality".
But the co-author of the study the PM was referring to said the variant's deadliness remained an "open question".
Another adviser said he was surprised Johnson had shared the findings when the data was "not particularly strong".
A third top medic said it was "too early" to be "absolutely clear".
At a Downing Street coronavirus news conference, the prime minister said: "In addition to spreading more quickly, it also now appears that there is some evidence that the new variant - the variant that was first identified in London and the South East - may be associated with a higher degree of mortality."
Speaking alongside the PM, the government's chief scientific adviser Sir Patrick Vallance said there was "a lot of uncertainty around these numbers" but that early evidence suggested the variant could be about 30 percent more deadly.
For example, Sir Patrick said if 1000 men in their 60s were infected with the old variant, roughly 10 of them would be expected to die - but this rises to about 13 with the new variant.
You must log in or register to see images
Sir Patrick Vallance says early evidence suggests the variant could be about 30 percent more deadly. Photo: AFP
The announcement followed a briefing by scientists on the government's New and Emerging Respiratory Virus Threats Advisory Group (Nervtag) which concluded there was a "realistic possibility" that the variant was associated with an increased risk of death.
But one of the briefing's co-authors, Prof Graham Medley, told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "The question about whether it is more dangerous in terms of mortality I think is still open.
"In terms of making the situation worse it is not a game changer. It is a very bad thing that is slightly worse," added Prof Medley, who is a professor of infectious disease modelling at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine.
Another 1348 deaths within 28 days of a positive coronavirus test were reported in the UK on Saturday, in addition to 33,552 new infections, according to the government's coronavirus dashboard.
Announcement defended
Nervtag's chairman Prof Peter Horby defended the government's "transparency" in making the announcement.
"Scientists are looking at the possibility that there is increased severity... and after a week of looking at the data we came to the conclusion that it was a realistic possibility," he said.
"We need to be transparent about that. If we were not telling people about this we would be accused of covering it up."
But Dr Mike Tildesley, a member of Sage subgroup the Scientific Pandemic Influenza Group on Modelling (Spi-M), agreed it was too early to draw "strong conclusions" as the suggested increased mortality rates were based on "a relatively small amount of data".
He told BBC Breakfast he was "actually quite surprised" Johnson had made the early findings public rather than monitoring the data "for a week or two more".
"I just worry that where we report things pre-emptively where the data are not really particularly strong," Dr Tildesley added.
Public Health England medical director Dr Yvonne Doyle also said it was not "absolutely clear" the new variant was more deadly than the original.
"There is some evidence, but it is very early evidence. It is small numbers of cases and it is far too early to say," she told the Today programme.
Meanwhile, senior doctors are calling on England's chief medical officer to cut the gap between the first and second doses of the Pfizer-BioNTech Covid-19 vaccine.
The British Medical Association told Prof Chris Whitty an extension to the maximum gap between jab from three weeks to 12 weeks, to get the first dose to more people, was "difficult to justify".