Club Finances

[originallambrettaman]

With all due respect, I honestly couldn't care less about other clubs finances or if they're run sustainability or not. They won't bail us out if we get into trouble or suffer points deductions etc. We are being run unsustainably, that isn't an opinion as PLT claimed. It's a fact and that's all I'm bothered about, not other clubs

Most football clubs are run unsustainably, it’s the nature of football, almost all clubs are dependent on the owner continuing to fund them.

 

[Chazz Rheinhold]

Our wage costs are 139% of our revenue,

Exactly what happened under duffen

 

[kccircle]

Next year will show the Greaves transfer income in full as a home grown player plus whatever we made from the Philogene transfer too.
I’d suspect realistically there will be a couple of outgoings to further balance but who? There isn’t a lot left is there?

 

[Mckechnie Orange]

Ok, feel free to break it down as to why you feel that's a fair value

Ask Transfermarkt. They're generally regarded as the standardbearer.

But also we've recently paid some fairly significant market values for young players who should accrue value, all things being equal of course.

There's always inherent risk, I'm just pointing out we're not being run in a completely irrational way and in line with many of our peers.

 

[Howdentiger2]

Most football clubs are run unsustainably, it’s the nature of football, almost all clubs are dependent on the owner continuing to fund them.

Believe it or not, I know that! But it doesn't change the fact I couldn't care less how other clubs finances look, how they're run or what the nature of football is, as absolutely none of that will make a shred of difference if things go south for us unfortunately

 

[originallambrettaman]

Our wage costs are 139% of our revenue,

Exactly what happened under duffen

We knew it would be at this level after Acun went on his January spending spree and we knew we’d have to sell Greaves and Philogene to cover it, none of this is a surprise.

 

[Howdentiger2]

Ask Transfermarkt. They're generally regarded as the standardbearer.

But also we've recently paid some fairly significant market values for young players who should accrue value, all things being equal of course.

There's always risk, I'm just pointing out we're not being run in a completely irrational way and in line with many of our peers.

I've looked and some of the figures are laughable... Slater £3.5m, sinik £2m, omur £7m, Pedro £3m, I could go on.....

 

[Gone For A Walk]

The other thing not being considered is the value of the asset more or less covers the amount of debt. 65m debt Vs 63.5m estimated value according to Transfermarkt.

Can you please give a short summary of where this £63m value comes from? I can't see how we have anywhere near that value. Decimal point missing?

 

[PLT]

The owner is having to pump money in every week to keep it afloat, we are hugely in debt and our wage bill is approx 140% of our revenue and an operating loss over £26m. Feel free to explain how you feel that club being run in an unsustainable way isn't Correct

Well as I understand it, that's pretty much the norm at this level of football. The alternative is that he puts less money in and we're less likely to compete at the top end (Clearly we're not doing right now anyway, but that's a separate issue. For the finance being spent, we certainly should be able to.)

Football's finances are a mess and we exist in that world. Ultimately, we have no factual proof of Acun's intentions and no way of knowing whether he'll one day pull his money out and leave us in trouble. As I said, I don't think there's any reason to believe that he's doing anything irresponsible. We can't know for sure and I think it's healthy to wonder and to ask the question, but it's pointless and baseless to assume the worst also.

 

[Mckechnie Orange]

If these accounting figures are for the period to June, they don't include the summer business and obvious reduction in current wage bill.

We still have no idea of the current projections going forward.

 

[HHH]

We knew it would be at this level after Acun went on his January spending spree and we knew we’d have to sell Greaves and Philogene to cover it, none of this is a surprise.

Aye, this is last seasons wages when we went all in for promotion in January. Plus other high earners that are no longer with us.

That squad was gutted so it's comparing apples with bowling balls to this seasons wage bill.

You've got to think it's lower now...

 

[Howdentiger2]

Aye, this is last seasons wages when we went all in for promotion in January. Plus other high earners that are no longer with us.

That squad was gutted so it's comparing apples with bowling balls to this seasons wage bill.

You've got to think it's lower now...

You'd be surprised!

 

[Top_Tiger]

Quite glad I posted this and we won.

 

[originallambrettaman]

Aye, this is last seasons wages when we went all in for promotion in January. Plus other high earners that are no longer with us.

That squad was gutted so it's comparing apples with bowling balls to this seasons wage bill.

You've got to think it's lower now...

Indeed, filed accounts are always quite interesting and give some indication of things, but by their very nature, they’re already historic once they’re made public.

 

[Mckechnie Orange]

Can you please give a short summary of where this £63m value comes from? I can't see how we have anywhere near that value. Decimal point missing?

It's the Transfermarkt figure for estimated club value.

I'd suggest they had a better methodology than I or Howden.

But you look at the fees we've paid for the current squad then you can see how they've come to that value.

Whether they go on to realise that value is simply the risk inherent with speculating to accumulate. Nothing is guaranteed, I'm just saying it's not a particularly irrational financial strategy that breaks norms seen elsewhere in the division.

 

[originallambrettaman]

It's the Transfermarkt figure for estimated club value.

I'd suggest they had a better methodology than I or Howden.

But you look at the fees we've paid for the current squad then you can see how they've come to that value.

Whether they go on to realise that value is simply the risk inherent with speculating to accumulate. Nothing is guaranteed, I'm just saying it's not a particularly irrational financial strategy that breaks norms seen elsewhere in the division.

On average, Transfermarkt's estimated market value differs by some 60 percent from a player's actual transfer fee.

 

[originallambrettaman]

Believe it or not, I know that! But it doesn't change the fact I couldn't care less how other clubs finances look, how they're run or what the nature of football is, as absolutely none of that will make a shred of difference if things go south for us unfortunately

Hull City currently account for 4% of debt in the Championship, we’re a long way down the list of clubs likely to imminently ‘go south’.

 

[Drew]

We have some facts in the accounts, some things that aren't public or aren't quantifiable at all, and it's up to the individual to interpret that picture as they choose. Personally I am acutely aware that this fan base is extremely reactive lately and so I would wait for the interpretation of an unbiased expert on such matters who isn't influenced by emotion, such as that Kieran Maguire who is usually the man on these matters.

For example, this person says the club is being run in a totally unsustainable way. That is an opinion, and it relies on contextual information which we don't have. They also say that the finances rely entirely on player sales; I'm no accountant but I would allow for the possibility that in a retrospective set of accounts, we have specifically chosen to spend an amount based on the player sales we know we've made. Perhaps if we hadn't made those sales then we wouldn't have spent so much, in which case it would be wrong to say that we're totally dependent on player sales as if that's a dangerous and unsustainable thing.

Ultimately, we don't know enough to come to any sort of conclusion, football is a nonsensical industry financially and our choice is to trust or not the trust the people in charge. I think you are prudent to not trust Acun unconditionally, and football club owners in general. But I also think he's done nothing to deserve our distrust in a financial sense.

Good post this.

I'm no football finance expert and without a doubt we have spaffed a load of money up the wall unnecessarily - but at the same time I remember when the last set of accounts came out a lot of people were concerned because we were operating at a weekly loss before transfer fees received were taken into account.

That was always an absolute nonsense as that's our best source of income.

For all the criticism of the current squad - we do have a number of players who could well be worth a decent amount of money in the future. Alzate, Hughes, Puerta (if signed) and Belloumi could all move on for decent fees if they build on their potential.

I don't think Acun will get a gold medal for running a football club by any means and we've done things the hard way - but at the same time we should take time to acknowledge context and see how it pans out a bit more before we get out the pitchforks.

These accounts certainly raise an eyebrow - but whilst the Allams left the club in a decent financial position they also had stopped speculating to accumulate. There was always going to have to be a little bit of that to get us pushing forward.

 

[Howdentiger2]

Hull City currently account for 4% of debt in the Championship, we’re a long way down the list of clubs likely to imminently ‘go south’.

We could be 1% for all I care, it's make absolutely no difference to our individual accounts. You're a successful business man, you know full well that just because your debt is a small % compared to someone else doesn't mean anything to your business and the state of its finances

 

[Mckechnie Orange]

On average, Transfermarkt's estimated market value differs by some 60 percent from a player's actual transfer fee.

To be fair, their figure includes the value of loans who aren't our asset, but includes nothing for the fixtures and fittings or infrastructure.

As long as the debt burden doesn't significantly exceed the overall value of the club as an asset at eventual point of sale then I'm not unduly concerned.

If we don't see the numbers stabilising in the next few sets as opposed to be continuing to grow then I will be. But surely they'll have to - that's what this summer rebuild was all about wasn't it?