Bustino's Breeding Bits
- Thread starter Bustino74
- Start date
-
Please bear with us on the new site integration and fixing any known bugs over the coming days. If you can not log in please try resetting your password and check your spam box. If you have tried these steps and are still struggling email [email protected] with your username/registered email address
-
Coolemore's names are always pretty boring aren't they? In that same race Donnacha O'Brien has entered A Boy Named Susie - much better name
Now if they had called it All Action.... or Piece of the...Coolemore's names are always pretty boring aren't they? In that same race Donnacha O'Brien has entered A Boy Named Susie - much better name
Last edited:
Well you've got to like him. He probably won that race a bit easier than it seemed. I think Crouch had thought he had it in the bag some way out and as he sliced through the field was perhaps surprised that he had to quicken again.
A mile will be within his scope.
Another AOB hotshot 2yo flops once raised in class.
I'm connected to her on LinkedIn. She was promoted to Head of Operations at the British EBF in April so I guess that is keeping her busy
I'm connected to her on LinkedIn. She was promoted to Head of Operations at the British EBF in April so I guess that is keeping her busy
. Will be great to see you back here
Quite a few years back, when the chief stud I was following was the Ballymacoll Stud, I was very critical of their handling of their best broodmare Hellenic: best because she produced 3 Group 1 winners, including the champion filly Islington. My criticism centred on the stallions they sent to Hellenic during her career at the stud. She was a fairly productive broodmare as she produced 14 live foals (even though she was barren or her foal slipped in the last 3 years at stud). I could not believe that she was only ever sent to Northern Dancer line stallions and found it unthinkable that she was sent to Sadler's Wells a dozen times and produced 9 sons and daughters by him.
What's wrong with that you might ask? Wasn't Sadler's Wells the pre-eminent sire during most of her time at stud? Well yes he was but that's even more reason not to so concentrate on him. Ballymacoll was an owner-breeder. If they'd been a commercial breeder who sold all or most of their foals it could make commercial sense to use the best sire available. But even then it could be short-sighted. As they were owner-breeders the policy bordered on blindness.
If you are an owner breeder then you must think about the future of the families you are finding to be successful in your stud. You need good daughters from good mares to carry on that line. The supreme example of an owner breeder who gets it right is/was the Aga Khan. When you look at the pedigrees of his successful horses you find surprising stallions in their pedigrees (on the dam's side). Sure he used plenty of really top sires but he used plenty of others too.
If you have a top mare like Hellenic and you send it to Sadler's Wells all the time, then any of those daughters by him cannot be sent to Sadler's Wells, more importantly to any of his sons (Galileo) and perhaps his grandsons (Frankel and even Teofilo): and what sires those sons and grandsons turned out to be! To use a Bridge term you've blocked the suit. You've blocked yourself from using the family with the best Sire line around. Not forever but for a few generations at least, and that's damaging to an owner-breeder. So the name of Hellenic and especially her Sadler's Wells daughters have not been seen in the pedigrees of top class horses.
What prompted this post was the victory of Waardah in the the Group 2 Lillie Langtry Stakes yesterday. Her 4th dam is Hellenic but the 3rd dam is not by Sadler's Wells but by Green Desert and called Desert Beauty. The second dam is Red Dune by Red Ransom (by Roberto) and when sent to a son of Galileo she produced a filly called Neesan and the extremely promising Waardah is her second foal by the Dubawi sire Postponed. Look at the pedigree of Waardah and there are no duplications in the first four generations. The only duplication in the 5th generation is to Mr Prospector, so no multiple lines of Northern Dancer as there often is. Why didn't Ballymacoll use Green Desert more than once, why didn't they send Hellenic to Red Ransom (they sent her daughter) and why not send Hellenic to Rainbow's Quest for example.
I have my theory but answers on a postcard.
What's wrong with that you might ask? Wasn't Sadler's Wells the pre-eminent sire during most of her time at stud? Well yes he was but that's even more reason not to so concentrate on him. Ballymacoll was an owner-breeder. If they'd been a commercial breeder who sold all or most of their foals it could make commercial sense to use the best sire available. But even then it could be short-sighted. As they were owner-breeders the policy bordered on blindness.
If you are an owner breeder then you must think about the future of the families you are finding to be successful in your stud. You need good daughters from good mares to carry on that line. The supreme example of an owner breeder who gets it right is/was the Aga Khan. When you look at the pedigrees of his successful horses you find surprising stallions in their pedigrees (on the dam's side). Sure he used plenty of really top sires but he used plenty of others too.
If you have a top mare like Hellenic and you send it to Sadler's Wells all the time, then any of those daughters by him cannot be sent to Sadler's Wells, more importantly to any of his sons (Galileo) and perhaps his grandsons (Frankel and even Teofilo): and what sires those sons and grandsons turned out to be! To use a Bridge term you've blocked the suit. You've blocked yourself from using the family with the best Sire line around. Not forever but for a few generations at least, and that's damaging to an owner-breeder. So the name of Hellenic and especially her Sadler's Wells daughters have not been seen in the pedigrees of top class horses.
What prompted this post was the victory of Waardah in the the Group 2 Lillie Langtry Stakes yesterday. Her 4th dam is Hellenic but the 3rd dam is not by Sadler's Wells but by Green Desert and called Desert Beauty. The second dam is Red Dune by Red Ransom (by Roberto) and when sent to a son of Galileo she produced a filly called Neesan and the extremely promising Waardah is her second foal by the Dubawi sire Postponed. Look at the pedigree of Waardah and there are no duplications in the first four generations. The only duplication in the 5th generation is to Mr Prospector, so no multiple lines of Northern Dancer as there often is. Why didn't Ballymacoll use Green Desert more than once, why didn't they send Hellenic to Red Ransom (they sent her daughter) and why not send Hellenic to Rainbow's Quest for example.
I have my theory but answers on a postcard.
Bustino, good morning.
Didn’t Michael Sobell own Hellenic and wasn’t she related to Reform? But don’t ask me how!
Not sure when Sobell died. Up until he did die nearly all of the Ballymacoll horses ran in his colours, with him owning 2/3 and Arnold Weistock (his son in law) owning the rest.
Reform's dam was Hellenic's 4th dam. Hellenic's 3rd dam was a full-sister to Reform.
Last edited:
He died in 1993, so owned Hellenic until she was a 6yo. In 1993 Desert Beauty was conceived though I have no idea who planned the matings of the Ballymacoll mares at that stage. On his death all his horses became the property of his son-in-law and continued to run in the Sobell colours.
Keane gave the Gosden Juddmonte 2yo filly Legacy Link a very tender introduction at Newmarket yesterday. This precious filly is by Dubawi out of a full-sister to Frankel named Chiasma, who only raced as a 3yo winning once over 12f at Kempton.
I'm sure the patience will pay off.
Chiasma has a full-sister yearling filly and full-brother foal to Legacy Link. Other than Joyeuse (by Oasis Dream) she is Frankel's only sister at stud.
I'm sure the patience will pay off.
Chiasma has a full-sister yearling filly and full-brother foal to Legacy Link. Other than Joyeuse (by Oasis Dream) she is Frankel's only sister at stud.
St Marks Basilica starts his run
and Space Blues gets a second wind.
You must log in or register to see images
and Space Blues gets a second wind.
Yesterday saw a UK 2yo Benefit session at Deauville. There were three 2yo races at the Normandy seaside track and they were all won by English trained horses.
First up was a 7f race for unraced colts and geldings worth £66,000+ to the winner and it was won by Ed Walker's Northern Champion, ridden by Shoemark. He is by Wootton Basset out of a Shamardal mare, so likely to be a miler. He won from a Brian Meehan trained gelding called River Card (by Hello Youmzain).
The second course was an identical race for fillies won by the Richard Hughes trained Rose Ghaiyyath (by Ghaiyyath) who held on by a short head from a Brian Meehan trained filly called Zaravina (by Zarak).
The dessert, was the richest race of the lot worth, a £107,000 six and half furlong event won by Ralph Beckett's Cape Orator, by Mohather out of a Motivator mare.
So a good day for Les Anglais, and good for 2 second crop sires. Meehan must feel hard done by but he still went home with £50,000+.
Actually there was an earlier 2yo race on the card but this was a claimer and won by the French trained Daisy Daisy, who was English owned and by an English sire (Bated Breath).
First up was a 7f race for unraced colts and geldings worth £66,000+ to the winner and it was won by Ed Walker's Northern Champion, ridden by Shoemark. He is by Wootton Basset out of a Shamardal mare, so likely to be a miler. He won from a Brian Meehan trained gelding called River Card (by Hello Youmzain).
The second course was an identical race for fillies won by the Richard Hughes trained Rose Ghaiyyath (by Ghaiyyath) who held on by a short head from a Brian Meehan trained filly called Zaravina (by Zarak).
The dessert, was the richest race of the lot worth, a £107,000 six and half furlong event won by Ralph Beckett's Cape Orator, by Mohather out of a Motivator mare.
So a good day for Les Anglais, and good for 2 second crop sires. Meehan must feel hard done by but he still went home with £50,000+.
Actually there was an earlier 2yo race on the card but this was a claimer and won by the French trained Daisy Daisy, who was English owned and by an English sire (Bated Breath).