Bustino's Breeding Bits

Discussion in 'Horse Racing' started by Bustino74, Aug 14, 2018.

  1. Bustino74

    Bustino74 Thouroughbred Breed Enthusiast

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    A thread I thought I’d add so as to comment on things in the breeding world from time to time.

    2yo of the moment is Dark Vision, recently purchased by Godolphin for a considerable return on the 15,000gns paid for this colt as a yearling. On the sire side he is a bit of an anomaly as his sire, Dream Ahead (although tracing back to Darley Arabian like 95%+ of all horses in Europe), comes from a sire-line that includes no Danzig, no Sadler’s Wells and even no Nearco. Dream Ahead was a top 2yo and near enough champion sprinter as a 3yo in 2011. He was also one of the top first season sires of his year. His grand-sire is that good miler Warning, whose sire Known Fact was also a very good miler. This is a sire line that traces back to Man O War, so a rarity on these shores.

    His distaff side is very much UK bound and tied up with the family of W&R Barnett. The first Barnett horse I can recall was the 1967 Nassau Stakes winner Fair Winter, but a year after (a few coffin-dodgers out there will remember) they had their best colt in High Line. A fairly backward 2yo he came alive as a 3yo to win the Warren Stakes and then the Levin Down Stakes (a precursor to the Predominate Stakes) to become a touted outsider for the Derby. Unfortunately this Derek Candy (father of Henry) trained colt had an injury which made him miss the big race. He was reckoned to have a strong chance in the Leger but was withdrawn at the stalls and ended up having his biggest win in the Jockey Club Cup (a race he was to win 3 times). As a 4yo he proved his superiority over the ’69 Leger winner Intermezzo in a couple of races and was retired to stud at the end of his 5yo career. Today a horse like him would either not go to stud or be used only for NH mares, which would have been a big loss.

    Barnett wasn’t afraid to use High Line for his own and owned and bred the sire’s best colt in Master Willie (who was out of Fair Winter) and finished 2nd in the Derby and won the Eclipse. However returning to Dark Vision we find that his 5th dam is the Barnett’s Dark Finale. Of no great account she was sent to High Line and produced a reasonable filly called Shore Line (sold by Barnett as a 3yo) who managed a 4th in the Oaks. She in turn became the 4th dam of Dark Vision and the dam of that good racehorse Soviet Line. A full-sister to Shore Line kept by Barnett became the granddam of Barnett’s Pure Grain who was just about the best staying filly of her year winning the Musidora, Irish Oaks and Yorkshire Oaks. (High Line was also the sire of the dam of Barnett’s best-ever horse, the filly Time Charter).

    A daughter of Shore Line was sent to the speedy Rock City and produced a filly called South Rock who was a fairly decent filly and felt worthy of being sent to Dansili. The result was Dark Vision’s dam Black Dahlia who is 4 X 4 inbred to High Line because Dansili’s granddam was by High Line.

    So very much a Barnett bottom half, with High Line playing a strong role: who says staying sires serve no purpose? Despite there being these stamina influences in his lower half, Dark Vision’s pedigree seems to be saying he’ll be a miler, because despite these influences he’s also got a speedy sire and Rock City in the mix. However although 7-8f looks optimum some staying genes may allow him eventually to stretch to 10f. We’ll see.
     
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    Last edited: Aug 14, 2018
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  2. Ron

    Ron Well-Known Member
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    For all those who find these articles interesting there is an index to some of Bustino's other threads The Bustino Collection.

    There are some others, more recent, that haven't yet been catalogued

    For info, particularly the relatively newer members, you can search threads by a specified member by using the search facility at the top right of the screen. Click on Search, check Search titles only, and enter the member name where it says Posted by Member, then click Search. As you will see there are more search options available you might find useful
    upload_2018-8-14_13-6-44.png
     
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  3. Cyclonic

    Cyclonic Well Hung Member

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    Do we really want to know about your breeding bits Busty? <laugh>
     
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  4. Ron

    Ron Well-Known Member
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    Anyone who would like to take a peep at Cyc's bits (although you may need a larger screen, by all accounts) may visit The Cyclonic Collection
     
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  5. Bustino74

    Bustino74 Thouroughbred Breed Enthusiast

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    You always see through me Cyc.
     
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  6. Bustino74

    Bustino74 Thouroughbred Breed Enthusiast

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    Thanks Ron. One article missing is my critique of Ballymacoll mares. About 2014 I'd guess but in some ways it turned out to be prescient.
     
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  7. Bustino74

    Bustino74 Thouroughbred Breed Enthusiast

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    When a Coolmore horse wins you tend to expect the sire to be one of their own. Well this filly isn’t. She’s not by Galileo, she’s not by War Front, she's not by Scat Daddy, she’s not even by Australia or Camelot, or any of those expensive sires. Lowther winner, Fairyland is actually by a sire called Kodiac, who started his career at the Tally-Ho stud at a bargain basement price of €5000.

    Kodiac won 4 races, but apart from his maiden win he only won handicaps. His highest rated performance was a second in the Gp3 Hackwood Stakes at Newbury. It makes you wonder how he even went to stud. Well that’s easily answered as his half-brother Invincible Spirit (4 years older) had proved himself a top sprinter and by that time had been at stud for 4 years and was known for the quality of his offspring. Invincible Spirit was an immediate success and overachieved when siring Prix de Jockey Club winner Lawman. He went on overachieving with probably his best offspring being Kingman. In 2012 he posted 42 individual 2yo winners worldwide (a European record).

    Kodiac went to stud at the end of 2006 and so his first foals hit the track in 2010. He didn’t have a very large book and he didn’t make a big splash as a first season sire. By this time his fee had dropped to €4000. However people were noticing he was getting good stock to even the ordinary mares he was servicing. By 2014 his reputation (and the size of his books) was growing and his fee was increased to €10,000. To show this was no flash in the pan in 2015 he became the European record holder for individual 2yo winners when 43 of his offspring won. In 2017 he broke the previous World record of Sunday Silence and Kodiac now stands for €50,000.

    A facile criticism of him was that he only got 2yo sprinters. That had some strength in his early days as he was only getting books of mares who, in the main, were fast cheap mares with the exact intention of getting 2yo sprinters. The point was how well he was doing it. In 2012 to a cheap covering price he produced a filly called Tiggy Wiggy who gave him his first royal Ascot winner, first G1 win (Chevely Park) and a 3rd in the 1000G. Two years later he produced a colt called Best Solution who has now given him a 12f Group 1 win (admittedly in Germany). So he proved he could get class horses at 8f and 12f, and why not? His sire Danehill was placed in the 2000G and his dam won the Prix de Diane. For those oldies on the forum his great granddam was a filly called Border Bounty who was good enough to be placed in the Yorkshire Oaks, Park Hill Stakes and the Musidora. So there’s plenty of stamina and some class in his dam’s pedigree.

    Since 2014 leading breeders began to take notice of this stallion and those horses will start coming through now. Perhaps the best is yet to come.
     
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  8. Bustino74

    Bustino74 Thouroughbred Breed Enthusiast

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    I'm not going to talk about Too Darn Hot and his siblings. My interest is his dam and her genesis. Dar Re Mi was a good filly and was bred by the Lloyd Webbers. She's by Singspiel out of a Top Ville mare called Darara, who was bred and originally owned by the Aga Khan. She was also a good filly winning the Prix Vermeille for the Aga Khan and thought worthy of running in Dancing Brave's Arc. Her dam Delsy was also the dam of that very good French colt and wonderful sire called Darshaan: so Too Darn Hot's granddam is a half sister to Darshaan,

    The Aga Khan owned Delsy but did not breed her, as that honour goes to Marcel Boussac. Boussac's business and breeding empire collapsed in the mid-70s and the Aga Khan snapped up a large amount of his families and amongst the mares he bought was Delsy. At that time Delsy's claim to fame was that she emanated from one of Boussac's best lines and that was the family of (just about his favourite) Tourbillon, who was not only a very good racehorse but a top sire. For those that are interested I wrote an article on Boussac a few years back and you can find it in Ron's indexes. One of the issues I discussed in the article was the in-breeding practised by Boussac. Delsy is no exception. Not only is it from the family of Tourbillon, but the sire comes from the sire line of Tourbillon and then Tourbillon is the sire of the 4th dam of Delsy. So in the first 6 generations there are 3 crosses of Tourbillon's dam (today's equivalent would be Natalma the dam of Northern Dancer but also the 4th dam of Danehill).

    With the dilution of Boussac's lines in today's modern pedigrees their strength seems to be reasserting itselves. Too Darn Hot is not the only example: there are many but try Almanzor. Boussac's great families are still a force.

    One thing I don't know anything about is why the Lloyd Webbers got their hands on Darara. However they did it, it was certainly a smart move. As well as Dar Re Mi as a daughter of Darara they have a half-sister called Evita (pleasingly by Selkirk) who probably needs sending to Dubawi! As regards the Aga Khan he has half-sisters to Darara. No doubt he'll be thinking about sending them to Dubawi or in fact to his own Zarak (who is by Dubawi out of his own Zarkava). He has already had success with Darshaan but this family also gave him his Derby winner Sinndar.
     
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    Last edited: Sep 5, 2018
  9. Bustino74

    Bustino74 Thouroughbred Breed Enthusiast

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    To add to this, Watership Down have the following 2yos

    Fughetta a filly by Dubawi out of The Fugue, a Dansili sister to Too Darn Hot
    Trethias a filly by Invincible Spirit out of Evita, who is a Selkirk sister to Too Darn Hot's dam

    There is a Muharaar yearling filly sister to Trethias. They also have a yearling filly and filly foal by Dubawi out of The Fugue. Dar Re Mi has a yearling full brother and foal full sister to Too Darn Hot
     
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  10. Bustino74

    Bustino74 Thouroughbred Breed Enthusiast

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    One daily document I read is the Thoroughbred Daily News. I make sure I don't give you what they have already written about. You can read them yourself.
    Today's issue discussed in-breeding to Danehill. As I'd written articles on in-breeding (Boussac) and the paucity of sires who are not descendents of Northern Dancer (After you've filled up on Northern Dancer.https://www.not606.com/threads/after-youve-filled-up-on-northern-dancer-where-do-you-go.330005/..) I was interested to read this article that in-breeding to Danehill doesn't seem to be working.
    The analysis looked at a group of sires with Danehill close up in their pedigrees and compared the results of their matings to mares who did not bring about in-breeding to Danehill with the results of their matings to mares who did bring about in-breeding to Danehill. The results were fairly conclusive that it probably wasn't a good idea.
    When you look at all the sires whose own sire was Danehill (Kodiac, Danehill Dancer, Exceed and Excel, Dansili, Fastnet Rock, Redoutes Choice, War Front etc.) or a son of Danehill ( Fast Company, Mastercraftsman, Zoffany, Declaration of War etc.), you realise just how incestuous it could all be. Somewhere along the way in-breeding will cause problems and history will repeat itself.
     
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  11. Bustino74

    Bustino74 Thouroughbred Breed Enthusiast

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    It's not only Cathedral loving Russians who go to Salisbury. On Friday night Simon Crisford sent Hamdan Al Maktoum's Kodiac Jash colt down to Wiltshire for his 2nd start and he impressed everyone winning again.

    No I'm not going to talk about Kodiac again, here I'm interested in the dam's side. First of all Jash was bought at the sales as a foal for €88,000 then resold for 185,000gns. He comes from a family the Maktoums know well and takes the Maktoums back to their very early entry to Thoroughbred breeding in England.

    Let's go back to Jash's 5th dam Oh So Hot. She was an unraced filly owned and bred by a man named Jim Phillips (actually the Hon Jim). Phillips is almost forgotten now but had owned one of the best sires of the '70s. In 1962 Phillips bred a horse called Great Nephew who he put into training with Jack Jarvis. He was a good but not great 2yo but Jarvis was insistent he'd be a better 3yo. As a son of the talented Honeyway it would be difficult to gauge his distance. When he reappeared as a 3yo in the 2000G he finished an excellent 2nd. Phillips then surprised everyone by then sending him to Etienne Pollet (the trainer of Sea Bird) in France. His best run in France as a 3yo was his 2nd in the Prix Moulin. As a 4yo he became the top French miler and won The Moulin and Ganay. I most remember him when he returned to England to take on the Murless trained filly Fleet in the 1967 Eclipse. Great Nephew beat Fleet but had no answer to the finishing speed of Murless's seemingly 2nd string Busted. Great Nephew had run a good race, and maybe his best as Busted was a fantastic colt who probably would have won that year's Arc. Great Nephew was probably a better horse than his bare form, as he ran most of his career as a rig (an equivalent would be for Usain Bolt running with a couple of conkers in his jock strap!). Fairly late in his 4yo career Phillips received a phonecall from Pollet. His first words to Phillips were 'the ball has fallen' and at the end of the season he returned to Phillips' Dalham Hall Stud as a sire.

    He was always a decent sire but he stood out as regards his potency and virility, as in his first few seasons he got nearly all his mares in foal. Phillips bemoaned the fact that as soon as that was known he was sent a succession of mares who were finding it difficult to conceive (not good when no foal no fee were the covering terms). Great Nephews' first high spot was in 1974 when his 2yo son Grundy appeared. He went into winter quarters as strongly fancied for the 2000G. He was 2nd in that but went on to win the Derby and The 'Race of the Century'. In 1981 Great Nephew was represented by his best son Shergar about whom I need to say little other than the worst thing about his death was that it terminated the Fairway/Honeyway line.

    Despite the apparent success in 1981 it was the year in which an ailing Phillips sadly sold Dalham Hall Stud to Sheikh Mohammed. Included amongst the stud's broodmares was Oh So Hot (by Habitat) but also this mares' dam Oh So Fair. When purchased Oh So Fair was in foal to Kris and in 1982 she produced a filly who was named Oh So Sharp. A cracking 2yo, she reappeared as a 3yo when wining the 7f Nell Gwyn Stakes and ended her 3yo career with a victory in the 14.5f St Leger Stakes, along the way winning the 1000G and Oaks. This was a real old-fashioned second season. So Oh So Hot is a half-sister to Oh So Sharp and incidentally also half-sister to a cracking filly called Roussalka.Sheikh Mohammed had made a fantastic start

    With so many relatives like that it isn't surprising that Oh So Hot was soon sold out of the stud. Her daughter Zonda was sent to the fairly ordinary Lion Cavern and produced a filly called Lady Zonda, who produced for other owners a good filly called Hibaayeb who won Group1s in England and the US. Jash's granddam was therefore an unraced half-sister to this filly called Miss Respect (by Mark of Esteem). She again appears to have not raced and was sent to the speedy Dutch Art and the result was the dam of Jash, called Miss Azeza.

    So the family had deteriorated slightly but still had great foundations. A trip to Kodiac appears to have produced a colt many are saying may be the biggest threat to Ten Sovereigns in the Middle Park. I hope he is but this colt could get much further and if he proves his class in subsequent races he could easily be considered a Guineas possibility next year. .
     
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    Last edited: Sep 15, 2018
  12. Janabelle13

    Janabelle13 Well-Known Member

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    The Lloyd Webbers got Darara in 1994 - pretty expensive at the time but in hindsight a bit of a steal.

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  13. Bustino74

    Bustino74 Thouroughbred Breed Enthusiast

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    Thanks Janabelle
     
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  14. Bustino74

    Bustino74 Thouroughbred Breed Enthusiast

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    Have looked a little more into this. Darara, when sold, had not achieved a great deal as a broodmare. She had horses that didn't quite get to Group 1 standard and their best efforts were in Group 2 horses. When sold the Aga Khan had one filly called Dararita (by Halo) who herself was a disappointing mare and was sold with no produce in the Aga Khan's stud.
    Landing up at Watership Down Stud she didn't do too badly at first and produced a big HK money earner in river Dancer (by Sadler's Wells), then a pretty good horse called Rhagaas. She then hit a problem and was barren for 4 years. In 2002/3 she was sent to the Equine Health Centre in Newmarket and the decision was taken to wash out her fallopian tubes. She was then sent to Selkirk as he seemed capable of getting difficult mares in foal. By the time Evita was born Darara was at the relatively advanced age of 21 years old. Today at the Tattersalls sale, the Lloyd Webber's Stud sold a Muhaarar filly out of Evita for 370,000 guineas.
    After the birth of Evita, Darara was sent to Singspiel and as a 22yo she produced the filly Dar Re Mi: the rest was history and yesterday Dar Re Mi's Dubawi yearling sold for 3.5 milion guineas. Darara was then sent to Tiger Hill and produced the distinctly useful but ill-starred Rewilding. He was her last foal.

    So the Aga is without any Darara blood in his stud. Dara's dam was Delsy and as far as I can see he does have 2 mares tracing back to this mare. The first is Dabulena (by Siyouni) who is hopefully in foal to Iffraj and this will be her first foal. The second is the slightly older Diylawa (by Mastercraftsman) who has a yearling colt by Footprintsinthesand, and colt-foal by Awtaad and is in foal to Pivotal. The Aga Khan appears to have missed out here, surprising given that Delsy was the dam of his hugely influential sire Darshaan. Will he continue to miss out in the future?.
     
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  15. Bustino74

    Bustino74 Thouroughbred Breed Enthusiast

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    Fairyland, Jash and Best Solution, three top class horses for Kodiac. More to come?
     
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  16. Cyclonic

    Cyclonic Well Hung Member

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    I wouldn't be at all surprised if the latter runs a big race on the first Tuesday in November Bustino.
     
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  17. Bustino74

    Bustino74 Thouroughbred Breed Enthusiast

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    He was my tip for last year's Derby but failed in that race and went sour after that. He's done well this year and proved Kodiac can get a stayer. However in a truly run 16f race you wouldn't fancy him to get there. He's out of a fine Juddmonte family which produced many good horses including a Leger winner. However the dam is by Kingmambo. But the Melbourne Cup isn't an ordinary staying race.
     
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  18. Bustino74

    Bustino74 Thouroughbred Breed Enthusiast

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    With a week of the turf season to go it looks as if No Nay Never (by Scat Daddy) will end up Champion First Season sire. He's done well and has so far had 35 wins (the title is decided by races won in the Uk and Ireland). Two wins behind at the moment is Charm Spirit (by Invincible Spirit), who has done well considering many of his 2yos were trained in France. He, however, cannot match the quality of No Nay Never's wins.On 28 wins at the moment is Bungleinthejungle (by Exceed and Excel), who led the table for much of the season.
    There have been other first season sires who've started their careers well, none moreso than Kingman (Invincible Spirit) who got a lot of winners with many bigger winners (especially Calyx).Another sire, who has perhaps done surprisingly well, has been Sea the Moon (Sea the Stars). Finally Toronado (High Chaparall) hasn't done badly with a number of wins in France.
    I'd say this is as good a set of First Season Sires as you are likely to see. It will be interesting to see who goes on from these solid starts.
     
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  19. Bustino74

    Bustino74 Thouroughbred Breed Enthusiast

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    36 wins
     
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  20. Bustino74

    Bustino74 Thouroughbred Breed Enthusiast

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    In my look at Dark Vision I mentioned the owner-breeders W & R Barnett and their influence on that colt’s pedigree. While many owner breeders of 50 years ago have fallen by the wayside R Barnett is still out there and had a very promising 2018.

    Three fillies immediately come to mind and they are Star Terms, Mot Juste and Chartered. Hannon trains Star Terms, who is much the most exposed having run 6 times and winning twice. She showed some promise on her first two starts and then won her maiden at Newbury in July. She followed up in a Class 2 Novice event at Newmarket before taking her chance in the May Hill Stakes at Doncaster and in a muddling race found only Coolmore’s Fleeting too good for her. She then ran her best race in the Prix Marcel Boussac at Longchamp when beaten 2 necks after a far-from straightforward run.

    The Varian trained Mot Juste ran 4 times, winning twice. She started off in a Newmarket maiden and wasn’t even the first choice of her owner as Chartered (trained by Beckett) sported the first colours. She ran promisingly and then reappeared in a Goodwood maiden where she showed distinct improvement to finish 4th behind Glance and Sunday Star. She was then sent to Beverley for a confidence booster and won easily by 7 lengths. She was then upped to Group class and won the Oh So Sharp Stakes at Newmarket. In this race she illustrated her improvement by beating Sunday Star by a lengths (so a turnround of 6 lengths) and Glance by 5 lengths (a 10 length reversal) from her second start.

    Chartered had a quieter year . Following her debut at Newmarket she started as favourite but was beaten by a useful Gosden at Haydock at the end of September. She appeared outpaced 2 furlongs out but then ran on to take 2nd.

    These 3 fillies share one element and that is they are all descendents of Barnett’s 1982 Oaks winner Time Charter. This filly had a distinguished career. She didn’t achieve any black-type performances as a 2yo but on her 3yo seasonal debut won the Masaka Stakes. She followed this up with an eyecatching 2nd in the 1000G. Being by a July Cup winner, Saritamer, it was felt that she had little chance of staying the Oaks trip despite being out of a High Line mare. She proved this wrong by winning an average Oaks. Later in the year she proved her class by winning the Champion Stakes (as well as the Sun Chariot: then a 10f race) at Newmarket. As a 4yo she started the season slowly but had her biggest win when winning the King George VI and Queen Elizabeth Stakes at Ascot. She then went on to beat All Along in the Prix Foy before running only a disappointing 4th in the Arc behind that filly. Kept in training as a 5yo she opened her season with a scintillating victory in the Coronation Cup and was strongly fancied for the Eclipse. She was seen as a very unlucky loser when narrowly beaten by Sadler’s Wells at Sandown. She tailed off after this and went to stud at the end of the season.

    Chartered is the easiest to talk about as she has Time Charter as her granddam. Chartered is by Frankel out of a Green Desert mare called Time Saved. She won one small race but at stud has produced a black-type winner as well as several other winners. Chartered is well-bred but needs to improve a great deal over the winter. She is likely to be a 10f horse.

    Mot Juste has Time Charter as her 4th dam. The first dam is Group winning Sadler’s Wells mare called Time On. A useful filly, she won the listed Cheshire Oaks and then the Group 2 Prix Malleret. She is out of the Darshaan filly Time Away, who was just off top class winning the Musidora Stakes and being placed in the Prix de Diane and Nassau Stakes. Her dam was un unraced daughter of Time Charter. Her sire is the USA sire Distorted Humor (by Forty Niner by Mr Prospector). A specialist miler he brings the Mr Prospector element to Mot Juste’s mix. Mot Juste definitely has pace and there’s a possibility she’ll get further.

    The third filly is Star Terms who is by Sea the Stars. Her dam Best Terms (by Exceed and Excel) was one of the top 2yo fillies of 2011, winning her first 4 races including the Queen Mary and Lowther stakes. She failed in the Cheveley Park and didn’t appear to train on. She was out of an unraced Kris Mare called Sharp Terms, who in turn was out of a Shirley Heights daughter of Time Charter called By Charter. So very much a mixture of speed and stamina and predicting this filliy’s likely distance limit is difficult. For example, just because Best Terms never won beyond 6f doesn’t mean she would not have stayed further. She just did not train on.

    With the exception of Best Terms , this is usually a family where the horses improve with age (and possibly distance). I can see these 3 fillies improving next year. It would not surprise me if early next season we saw Mot Juste and Star Terms tested in 1000G trials, even if they would be better suited by further. I personally believe Mot Juste is underrated, as her G3 win was rather in the shadow of the fillies mile. As for Chartered she could improve past these other 2, once sent over 10f. She’ll be set for a maiden first though.

    Good to see the Barnett breds to the fore. The first one I can recall is when Fair Winter won the Nassau Stakes in 1967. The next key horse was High Line. 51 years on they are still reaching the heights. Also good to see High Line in all these pedigrees.
     
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