Off Topic Brexit

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Parliament's Brexit voting process (un)explained:

PM - "Here's my deal".

MP's - "No thanks."

PM - "Ok, how about this one?"

MP's - "It's the same one."

PM - "Yep".

MP's - "Still no, though we're slightly more interested."

PM - "Ok, how about this - here's the same deal, but a third time."

MP's - "Ah, yes, now we're in."
 
I was a remainer but as I've said many times I disagree completely with another vote. Not least because I think it would be a waste of money and will only deliver a more lopsided result towards the leavers. The majority of the country want to leave from what I here and see on a daily basis. Most of it appears to be based on some warped idea we'll control our borders better if we leave, but hey ho each to their own. I don't like it but I'm not pompous enough to refuse to accept it. The problem we have in this country is the vast majority of MPs want to remain. So in their true self serving style, their efforts to sort out Brexit is half hearted at best.

I mean lets be honest the tories simply fear Corbyn. Mainly because they know his policy is to tackle the rich in this country and upset the applecart. The banks and major corps do not want to entertain that, and obviously the elite will do all they can to prevent it. As we saw at the last election, give the man a platform, and he actually does pretty well regardless what people might think of him. Hence the smear campaign which has been running over some time against him with the anti semitic stuff, the czech spygate ****e etc. Of course they have a good ally for the anti semitic smear in Israel. I mean they obviously can't get over the fact that Mr Corbyn has long been a supporter of palestinian rights. (they forget of course he has long been a supporter of their rights too)

The net result of all this is we've probably guaranteed a seriously negative impact on ours and global economies with our dithering and ****tardery. Everyone is now upset. Ireland, Britain, the EU, US, the Asian states are all ****ed off. It really does show our politicians up for what they are.
 
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JulioGeordio90 said:
I'm confused by this. I completely get the mandate for leaving the EU, as much as I personally disagree with it - I can even understand the arguments against a second referendum. What I've never really understood is this element that suggests a soft brexit is "against the will of the people". Let's be fair, if the vote was 70-30 leave on the basis of a Leave campaign that stood on a single mandate of 'ending FoM, ECJ jurisdiction, single market and customs union' then I'd get it. But it wasn't. It was a narrow vote for a number of different reasons. I don't get the leave at all cost approach. A soft brexit is still leaving the EU?
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It was a phrase used for lack of a better one. Will 'the 51.9%' suffice?

I see it like any election vote in that people who voted Labour in a majority wouldn't appreciate Labour then being the most Conservative Labour ever because there was a percent in the vote. I agree our implementation of democracy is flawed, but we are where we are.

A soft Brexit negates the point of leaving though doesn't it? When people voted to 'leave the EU' they didn't vote to stay in the EU in all but name because you haven't left at all have you. It renders the vote meaningless to me and this is what we're on course for with May.

Say Remain had won the vote but we proceeded to just leave the EU in all but name, under Nigel Farage, would they feel it as ignoring the vote made?

I don't want to say go hang with everything and want all ties cut, I'm more about somebody finding a decent medium. May is and was never going to be that person, just like Farage. **** knows who is mind, that's not my job.
 
RobEllious said:
When people voted to 'leave the EU' they didn't vote to stay in the EU in all but name because you haven't left at all have you
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Yet that's pretty much what Gove & Johnson were pedalling, we'd still have the trade deal and we'd be able to pick and chose how we'd leave.
 
Frankly, I don't think you can say that "the people" meant anything in particular about what they were voting for. There was a broad range of predicted futures being touted about. Some no doubt had one vision in mind and some had another. Some voted leave just because the Tories were championing remain and they always vote against he tories. Some voted leave because they don't like brown people and believed that Turkey was about to join the EU. People who say "the peope voted for X" or "didn't vote for X" are talking ****e.

What is relatively clear though is that young people are overwhelmingly in favour of remain while the older you got, the more likely you were to vote leave. The number of people who have died and who are now eligible to vote means that it is statistically extremely likely that the majority would now prefer to remain as opposed to whatever vision of leave might be peddled around.
 
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Yeah **** this whole Brexit malarkey, load of nonsense, just waiting for them to call it off and then we can burn down the house of commons. They think the Croydon riots were bad in 2011 wait till they **** this up and end up stuck with a **** deal no one wanted or staying in Europe which will piss off 51% of the population - Riots will be had and I can't wait - need a new flat screen TV.
 
G4rdToonArmy said:
Yeah **** this whole Brexit malarkey, load of nonsense, just waiting for them to call it off and then we can burn down the house of commons. They think the Croydon riots were bad in 2011 wait till they **** this up and end up stuck with a **** deal no one wanted or staying in Europe which will piss off 51% of the population - Riots will be had and I can't wait - need a new flat screen TV.
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Yawn. Riot of the zimmer frame brigade. The country's seen of worse terrorism than that
 
Freddd said:
Frankly, I don't think you can say that "the people" meant anything in particular about what they were voting for. There was a broad range of predicted futures being touted about. Some no doubt had one vision in mind and some had another. Some voted leave just because the Tories were championing remain and they always vote against he tories. Some voted leave because they don't like brown people and believed that Turkey was about to join the EU. People who say "the peope voted for X" or "didn't vote for X" are talking ****e.

What is relatively clear though is that young people are overwhelmingly in favour of remain while the older you got, the more likely you were to vote leave. The number of people who have died and who are now eligible to vote means that it is statistically extremely likely that the majority would now prefer to remain as opposed to whatever vision of leave might be peddled around.
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You're just mentioning every vote ever undertaken though. Maybe we should fly back to 1970 when all the oldies were youngies and then we'd have had a nice win for remain?. I always remember loads of working class people voting for David Cameron because they were disillusioned with the Labour party. That was just as misguided.

It is a shame that race became such an issue. Anyone with two brain cells can tell you it will make little difference to immigration. However, you seem to be ignoring this is the same for remain. Plenty of powderpuffs voted Remain on no other basis than then to regale everyone with how they're not racist.

Anyways, that's all irrelevant really. Regardless of motive/awareness it was voted to 'leave the EU'. I'm sorry you thought it was a vote to 'kick out foreigners' or 'do you hate the Tories' but it wasn't. The public (I won't say people for fear of offending you) voted to Leave.

So all that in mind, does it look like we have managed to complete the basic element of what was voted for?

Nah.
 
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RobEllious said:
You're just mentioning every vote ever undertaken though. Maybe we should fly back to 1970 when all the oldies were youngies and then we'd have had a nice win for remain?. I always remember loads of working class people voting for David Cameron because they were disillusioned with the Labour party. That was just as misguided.

It is a shame that race became such an issue. Anyone with two brain cells can tell you it will make little difference to immigration. However, you seem to be ignoring this is the same for remain. Plenty of powderpuffs voted Remain on no other basis than then to regale everyone with how they're not racist.

Anyways, that's all irrelevant really. Regardless of motive/awareness it was voted to 'leave the EU'. I'm sorry you thought it was a vote to 'kick out foreigners' or 'do you hate the Tories' but it wasn't. The public (I won't say people for fear of offending you) voted to Leave.

So all that in mind, does it look like we have managed to complete the basic element of what was voted for?

Nah.
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This whole thing is a mess. We seem to want to blame the EU when its our parliament that wont agree a deal that our government has agreed with them, twice!

Think part of the problem stems from the “first past the post attitude” we have to politics. A lot of people seemed to see the Leave vote as a justication to start pushing a Hard Brexit. To me though the result, with only a small majority for Leave vote says two things:
1) as a country we want to leave the EU
2) there is also a majority that prefer a soft brexit
I actually think that’s what May was trying to achieve but she absolutely failed to get her party onside and Labour seem to have viewed this as a chance to achieve their own ends of using the mess to get into power.
Where do we go now - I would suspect if she cant push her deal through by month end there will be a significant extension, a general election and we will still be talking about this in another 6months.
 
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RobEllious said:
You're just mentioning every vote ever undertaken though. Maybe we should fly back to 1970 when all the oldies were youngies and then we'd have had a nice win for remain?. I always remember loads of working class people voting for David Cameron because they were disillusioned with the Labour party. That was just as misguided.

It is a shame that race became such an issue. Anyone with two brain cells can tell you it will make little difference to immigration. However, you seem to be ignoring this is the same for remain. Plenty of powderpuffs voted Remain on no other basis than then to regale everyone with how they're not racist.

Anyways, that's all irrelevant really. Regardless of motive/awareness it was voted to 'leave the EU'. I'm sorry you thought it was a vote to 'kick out foreigners' or 'do you hate the Tories' but it wasn't. The public (I won't say people for fear of offending you) voted to Leave.

So all that in mind, does it look like we have managed to complete the basic element of what was voted for?

Nah.
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Sorry, my point wasn't that the vote was inherently less valid than any other vote. The points I was trying to make were that:

- anyone who says the people voted for hard Brexit/ soft Brexit/etc are talking out of their ass
- if the purpose of the exercise is to enforce the choice of the people, that choice has probably changed

As you say, it isn't being accomplished anyway
 
JakartaToon said:
This whole thing is a mess. We seem to want to blame the EU when its our parliament that wont agree a deal that our government has agreed with them, twice!

Think part of the problem stems from the “first past the post attitude” we have to politics. A lot of people seemed to see the Leave vote as a justication to start pushing a Hard Brexit. To me though the result, with only a small majority for Leave vote says two things:
1) as a country we want to leave the EU
2) there is also a majority that prefer a soft brexit
I actually think that’s what May was trying to achieve but she absolutely failed to get her party onside and Labour seem to have viewed this as a chance to achieve their own ends of using the mess to get into power.
Where do we go now - I would suspect if she cant push her deal through by month end there will be a significant extension, a general election and we will still be talking about this in another 6months.
Click to expand...

If you want my guess, it will be that the EU will say you can only have an extension if you can come up with a concrete method by which you will come to a decision. After much mumbling, the MP's will say that the only way they can be sure a decision will be reached is to put it to a second referendum

Just a guess but it is something I could see happening
 
JakartaToon said:
This whole thing is a mess. We seem to want to blame the EU when its our parliament that wont agree a deal that our government has agreed with them, twice!

Think part of the problem stems from the “first past the post attitude” we have to politics. A lot of people seemed to see the Leave vote as a justication to start pushing a Hard Brexit. To me though the result, with only a small majority for Leave vote says two things:
1) as a country we want to leave the EU
2) there is also a majority that prefer a soft brexit
I actually think that’s what May was trying to achieve but she absolutely failed to get her party onside and Labour seem to have viewed this as a chance to achieve their own ends of using the mess to get into power.
Where do we go now - I would suspect if she cant push her deal through by month end there will be a significant extension, a general election and we will still be talking about this in another 6months.
Click to expand...
What is a "soft" brexit?
 
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I am Groot returns said:
What is a "soft" brexit?
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Has mostly tariff-free trafe agreements, some need to have a firm job offer with a minimum salary set but no work permit required for EU nationals for stays of longer than 3months, reciprocal healthcare etc. Or basically not a hatd brexit.
 
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