Off Topic BREXIT

[dennisboothstash]

You're not seriously suggesting that the result of the referendum might be overruled?

The result is the result, they're obviously going to have to accept it.

I am saying that is a possibility yes
During the minimum of the 2/3 years that it will take to work through there will be a number of times it could be delayed or defeated in the Commons (theoretically at least) and the bigger issue is that during that time we will all start to see what the actual impact might be, and there would likely be a general election. If there was a growing sense that when more impact is known the decision had been a bad one you could get a party standing with remaining in as a manifesto pledge, and if elected they would have the mandate to reverse the decision, and given the huge majority of MPs in favour of remaining that is at the very least possible

I'll be honest my first post was being deliberately contentious to stimulate debate, I'm not saying I think this will happen, but I do think it is a possibility at least

 

[dennisboothstash]

Of course this whole referendum is probably a ruse to take our minds off the membership scheme...you heard it here first

 

[The Omega Man]

0.5% may not sound much but if it continues for 10 years then that would add 3.3m (5%) to the population.

Unless there's massive investment in housing, schools, NHS, transport - that's well past breaking point.

Roughly one third of migrants are from countries outside of the EU. Between 2004 and 2007 the average was over 150k per year. That dropped off as tighter controls came in, but we have a skills shortage we need to train another 50,000 engineers every year or accept skilled immigrants.

Without immigration we will not have a viable NHS, building or manufacturing industries. We need the skills to protect the industries that we have and I would far rather they came from the EU than from outside of it.

 

[originallambrettaman]

I am saying that is a possibility yes.

It really isn't.

 

[Chilton's Hundreds]

Roughly one third of migrants are from countries outside of the EU. Between 2004 and 2007 the average was over 150k per year. That dropped off as tighter controls came in, but we have a skills shortage we need to train another 50,000 engineers every year or accept skilled immigrants.

Without immigration we will not have a viable NHS, building or manufacturing industries. We need the skills to protect the industries that we have and I would far rather they came from the EU than from outside of it.

We already have enough home-grown labour to fill all these jobs if they were educated to a decent standard and had the motivation to do so.

 

[clg101]

The way I look at the EU referendum is its like a dead end job. You are okay plodding on by and get the occasional crap from the bosses and can just about scrape by from day to day (i.e the NHS, police force etc.). Leaving is like starting up your own business. You are sick of work so you decide to start your own business. very risky with the potential of everything failing (stock markets, fx etc.). But after a few years of hard work, determination, and tight belts, you start to see the rewards and become more prosperous. Im voting out as i see a better future for my children in a country which negotiates its own trade deals and controls its own money, laws, regulations, borders by people WE elect.

 

[Happy Tiger]

We do not want to stop immigration. Everyone acknowledges we need immigration. We want to control it. And our own borders.

At the mo we don't and we can't.

You think that Turkey and the other E European countries about to join this free labour movement gravy train will be flooding the UK with skilled engineers and medical professionals?

No, they won't.

 

[Wade Wilson]

The way I look at the EU referendum is its like a dead end job. You are okay plodding on by and get the occasional crap from the bosses and can just about scrape by from day to day (i.e the NHS, police force etc.). Leaving is like starting up your own business. You are sick of work so you decide to start your own business. very risky with the potential of everything failing (stock markets, fx etc.). But after a few years of hard work, determination, and tight belts, you start to see the rewards and become more prosperous. Im voting out as i see a better future for my children in a country which negotiates its own trade deals and controls its own money, laws, regulations, borders by people WE elect.

I've worked for a couple startups that went to **** despite absolute motivation, dedication and sacrifice... quite a risk you're taking for your chidlren.

 

[originalminority]

Without immigration we will not have a viable NHS, building or manufacturing industries. We need the skills to protect the industries that we have and I would far rather they came from the EU than from outside of it.

This is a myth and immigration needs to be controlled to ensure the correct skills are imported.

 

[Wade Wilson]

Most laws passed by the EU don't apply to us and never will? Really? I would be interested to see the evidence of that.

You want evidence to back a remain argument but don't need any when it comes from Gove or Boris? How does that make sense.

And if they have given evidence, what makes their evidence more valid than the remain camp's evidence?

 

[Happy Tiger]

I've worked for a couple startups that went to **** despite absolute motivation, dedication and sacrifice... quite a risk you're taking for your chidlren.

Is it a risk though? When the alternative is living in a Europe controlled by people you don't know, didn't vote for and can't replace?

In a Europe where criminals can come to the UK but we can't send them home?

Where failed economies are propped up, and you pay for this?

Your country does well, pays its taxes, treats people well generally but countries which ar badly run and do not play fairly are subsidised and supported by your cash?

Where national votes are overruled by those people you didn't vote for?

You like that future for your kids more?

Your choice I guess.

 

[dennisboothstash]

It really isn't.

it really is...and even Financial Times writers agree with me

"The relevant legislation did not provide for the referendum result to have any formal trigger effect. The referendum is advisory rather than mandatory. The 2011 referendum on electoral reform did have an obligation on the government to legislate in the event of a “yes” vote (the vote was “no” so this did not matter). But no such provision was included in the EU referendum legislation.
What happens next in the event of a vote to leave is therefore a matter of politics not law. It will come down to what is politically expedient and practicable. The UK government could seek to ignore such a vote; to explain it away and characterise it in terms that it has no credibility or binding effect (low turnout may be such an excuse). Or they could say it is now a matter for parliament, and then endeavour to win the parliamentary vote. Or ministers could try to re-negotiate another deal and put that to another referendum......."

http://blogs.ft.com/david-allen-gre...vernment-legally-disregard-a-vote-for-brexit/

 

[originalminority]

Whether in or out of the EU we need a new policy of educating our young people. If there is a repeated skills shortage in, for example, engineering & medical every year we need to supplement student finance on these university courses to encourage our bright youngsters to fill the shortages and reduce the eternal demand for immigration in these fields.

 

[originallambrettaman]

The way I look at the EU referendum is its like a dead end job. You are okay plodding on by and get the occasional crap from the bosses and can just about scrape by from day to day (i.e the NHS, police force etc.). Leaving is like starting up your own business. You are sick of work so you decide to start your own business. very risky with the potential of everything failing (stock markets, fx etc.). But after a few years of hard work, determination, and tight belts, you start to see the rewards and become more prosperous. Im voting out as i see a better future for my children in a country which negotiates its own trade deals and controls its own money, laws, regulations, borders by people WE elect.

That's a pretty good analogy and was pretty much the view I was taking, but I've now come to the conclusion that the start-up is likely to be launched with its hands tied behind its back, with the banks limiting funding and all the customers expected to move to the new business not actually doing so.

The EU are bricking it about us leaving and if we do they'll have to make an example of us, or it's likely that our closest ally Sweden will follow us out and the whole thing could come down like a pack of cards. The EU needs us as much as we need them and I'm certain that they'd want a trade agreement in place if we were to leave, but I'm equally certain they'd make us pay through the nose for it.

 

[originallambrettaman]

it really is...and even Financial Times writers agree with me

"The relevant legislation did not provide for the referendum result to have any formal trigger effect. The referendum is advisory rather than mandatory. The 2011 referendum on electoral reform did have an obligation on the government to legislate in the event of a “yes” vote (the vote was “no” so this did not matter). But no such provision was included in the EU referendum legislation.
What happens next in the event of a vote to leave is therefore a matter of politics not law. It will come down to what is politically expedient and practicable. The UK government could seek to ignore such a vote; to explain it away and characterise it in terms that it has no credibility or binding effect (low turnout may be such an excuse). Or they could say it is now a matter for parliament, and then endeavour to win the parliamentary vote. Or ministers could try to re-negotiate another deal and put that to another referendum......."

http://blogs.ft.com/david-allen-gre...vernment-legally-disregard-a-vote-for-brexit/

The law says they don't necessarily need to accept it, but the reality is they absolutely will and as a consequence, this is an utterly pointless debate.

 

[Wade Wilson]

I am voting "Remain".

What country are we getting back? Will leaving stop immigration, I do not think it will, if we leave and it is a success, more will want to come from Asia, the Middle East and Africa, we may stop other Europeans, but not the masses who are flooding across the EU borders. Just who is going to do the jobs that foreign workers do now? Who is going to provide the income to cover our future pensions?

Most laws that are passed by the EU do not apply to us and never will.

Switzerland and Norway are cited as models for the UK to follow but both accept more EU migrants per capita than the UK. In fact, many more.

In 2012, according to Eurostat, gross EU immigration to Switzerland was 90,107. This amounts to a gross inflow of 11.33 EU migrants per 1000 of its population. In comparison, gross EU migration to the UK was 157,554, but only at a rate of 2.48 per 1000 of its population. Norway, in the European Economic Area, also had a rate of gross EU immigration far higher than the UK, with 7.38 EU migrants per 1000 of its population.

If the UK had the same rate of EU immigration as Switzerland in 2012, the gross inflow of EU migration would have been 719,248 rather than the actual figure of 157,554. That’s just over four and a half times more.

Both countries have higher foreign-born populations than the EU average, but Switzerland’s is much larger than the UK’s. Those born within the EU account for 15 per cent of Switzerland’s population while in the UK it is only 4.19 per cent, much closer to the EU average of 3.45 per cent.

Yes, but the point, I hear you say, is that Switzerland and Norway have much more democratic control over their immigration policy than the UK. This is only semi-true for Switzerland. And Norway, which is outside the EU but inside the European Economic Area and Schengen, arguably has less control over its borders than the UK – exactly the same free movement rules but no votes on these rules.

Switzerland is outside the EU but subject to almost the same free movement rules as the UK (via the bilateral Free Movement of Persons Agreement, which will give citizens of Bulgaria and Romania full access to the Swiss Labour market as of 31 May 2016 at the latest).

In a referendum in February, the Swiss voted to introduce quotas on EU migrants from 2017. However, the EU has so far refused to agree to this and has threatened to suspend its other bilateral agreements with the country if it unilaterally imposes quotas. You can argue that due to the UK’s size, it would be in a much stronger position to strike a deal. However, what you cannot do is to hail Norway and Switzerland as “some of the most successful countries in the world outside the EU” on the one hand, and fail to mention that both of them accept more EU migrants per head than the UK on the other.

Here's some very interesting "scare-mongering and propaganda" from the remain camp. Worth a read if you can be arsed or are on the fence.

https://www.ipsos-mori.com/Assets/D...perils_of_perception_eu_Final for webpage.pdf


This article was written 3 years ago for those thinking of comparing our model to the Swiss/Norwegians
http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2013/01/28/uk-eu-euroscepticism-norway-model-swiss-model-efta/

 

[City Man]

Without immigration we will not have a viable NHS, .

Why not?

 

[clg101]

I've worked for a couple startups that went to **** despite absolute motivation, dedication and sacrifice... quite a risk you're taking for your chidlren.

This country is loosing its culture, its beliefs and its damn right motivation to be the best country in the world. For centuries we where the leaders in almost every field of industry and medicine, producing the best architects, engineers, doctors, the list goes on. and its crazy how in the last 30-40 years we have lost a whole host of industries, dropping down the league tables in terms of education in comparison to the rest of the world. It may just be a coincidence and i am not for one saying I know everything by a long shot, but it seems to me and i may well be completely wrong, that since we joined the EU trade agreement, it has become financially cheaper to buy from other countries in the EU then to manufacture ourselves. which has caused many industries to decline and in many cases vanish. I would like to see industry in the UK supported by the people of the UK and if that means taxing foreign imports, so be it. When you go to France, they drive french cars, when you go to Germany, they drive German cars, when you come to the UK, we drive whatever car is the most popular without a care in the world who or where it was made.

 

[originalminority]

Thought we made more cars now then in years, foreign companies but made in British factories. British manufacturing is actually in renaissance.

 

[The greengrocer]

Any organisation that thinks it right to let prisoners have a vote gets a big from me!